"Not sure why some one who does nothing of these things thinks they have some insite into it. You are bassing everything you are talking about from old pictures and books"
Yes, I bass a lot of my insite on books and seeing what happens to others. I've never driven a car into a tree at 60 mph, but instead bass my insite on what happens when others try it, plus what I know of physics and mechanics.
I don't need to be a reiner to know that reiners are not riding the same as a dressage rider. Nor are they riding warmbloods. Nor are they performing collected gaits, per the FEI. Golly. All that just from watching. While I will agree that I am not riding a WB. The rest is just not 100% true. While I may not ride my reiners in a show in the same manner as one would ride a Dressage horse. That does not mean I do not school at times at home like that. Again until you actually know what goes into training a reiner do not make assumptions. You can go watch 10 different reining trainers and they will all do things differently. Heck go to a reining show and watch the warm up pen. They are all doing the same maneuvers but they are all schooling their horses in a different way.
But I also have tried different styles of riding, and watched how it affected my horses and me. I agree. The way you ride does affect many things. Heance why I like to ride my horses in different ways. It build in many aspects of the horse and rider. The horse gains knowlage as does the rider. It is like when you are working a cutting horse. The more cattle the horse works the more they gain insite into cows. You can not train a cutter on one cow. That horse needs to see litteraly thousends of cows before he is even clouse to cutting well.
I've actually tried riding in the style of those old cowboys while covering desert with a spooky mare, and I know something about how it works with her and for keeping me on her when the horse hits the fan. So your experiance comes from only one horse? Well then you are most definitly an expert.
I've tried switching between a forward seat and a western seat halfway thru a turn to see how the horse responds. I've got English, Aussie and western saddles, and use them. I sometimes swap out halfway thru a ride to see how a different saddle affects what I'm doing. That level of experimentation is a bit odd from what I've seen. While that is great and by doing so you have learned what is going on how it affects what you are doing and how the horse works. I do the same thing by doing different things with my horses. My stallion had done a lot of different things over the years. At the end of the day anyone can ride him from a little kid to an old person who has never ridden before.
"It is not about using the same position it is about what you gain from doing other things. Yes you may work in a Dressage position when doing Dressage and a Jumper position when jumping but one is still benificial to the other."
You continue to miss the point entirely. Folks who want to adopt parts of dressage are welcome to do so - but they had better understand the differences in their goals or they may adopt something that screws them up. Then why are you agrueing the point here? If you see that people can and do these things you must also understand that it can and does work. Also why do you think that I go and use a Dressage trainer and clinics to make sure what I am doing it correct?
I use a forward seat every time I ride, including riding in a western saddle. I also use a traditional western style very frequently. Depends on what I want to do at that moment. As a ROT, forward works better for speed & straight lines, and western works better for relaxed gaits & tight turns. Not sure why you think these 2 position are not posible to be used in the same work time or the same run. When I am running a large fast circly I have a more forward seat. When I need the speed change to the small slow circle I sit back more. When I start my run down I again change how I am sitting in the saddle. Again it is not a either or. It is more of an all of the above.
But to gain benefit, one needs to understand the differences between the goals. Much of dressage is geared toward collected gaits in an arena. So reining and other western events do not have collection in the arena? You do not think that the horses are schooled at home with a lot more collection then what you may see at a show? Again this shows what you do not know about training a reiner or a reined cow horse or a rope horse.
For that, a heel / hip / shoulder straight line is very good - yet I can point to popular books and online resources saying that is THE
way to ride, not A
way to ride. Again you are going back to books. So when where these book published? who put them out? Heck a lot of people say PP helps them when they are working their horses. I would not let that man muck my stalls.
Heck, I've had a lot of folks on HF tell me the same thing. An experienced western rider on this thread cited a website that explained collected riding reduces wear and tear on the horse, which certainly leaves open the question of why one needs to spend years building a horse up to handling collected gaits. Not sure why you think it takes years? Again it goes into how you get there. There are many ways to skin a cat. You seem to think there is only one way. The stringth it takes to do a collected lope is no different then the stringht it takes to perform a 35 foot sliding stop. A horse most of the time does not start out doing 35 foot sliding stops they work up to that. However it does not take years to get there. Though I am sure if you change the way you teach them and work the horse it could.
How many times have you heard someone complain about western riders 'riding on their pockets' without ever considering the differences between a western saddle tree and an English one? I've heard it quite a few times, and I'm in an area where there aren't a lot of English saddles. Again that has just as much to do with what you are asking the horse to do. Some does have to do with the saddle as each saddle will put you into a different position. A WP saddle will sit you a lot straiter like a Dressage saddle then a reining staddle will. However that does not mean that you can not change position.
As a relatively new rider, one of the things I've noticed is that many riders and many riding instructors repeat what they heard without ever thinking it through. I've paid instructors who told me I need to have my toes forward, but who got real vague when asked WHY. I didn't pay them long, but I have had lessons where toes front seemed to be the goal of riding. The amount of bunk that gets parroted in the riding world is disturbing.
And as a guy who largely took up riding at 50, I figured out real quick that a lot of riding advice works well for a 14 year old girl, but not a guy with a sore, tight back and very tight hips and legs. A lot of what I heard when I started riding was simply physically impossible for a typical beginning older rider, and there were darn few people who could discuss the tradeoffs involved.
Dressage is the basis for good dressage. It takes good riding basics and goes in one direction. It is a specialized sport - a subsection of riding. Hence my conflict with this in post #1: "Dressage is the base of all riding"
. However, good riding is best described in my signature ("...there are only two criteria of your position; a) are you in fluid balance and rhythm with your horse or not? b) does your seat enable you to control your horse efficiently?"
). Good riding is much more flexible than a lot of trainers & books suggest. Again it is not an either or. It can be all of the above. That is my point. You seem to think that one person can not use all the different tech. and pick out what works for a given situation.
"Again while that may not be dressage that does not mean that that horse and rider could not go home clean up and then do dressage."
They could have, if anyone in Texas in 1906 knew anything about dressage. However, they would need to UNDERSTAND the differences between dressage and cutting to make sure they didn't create bad habits in one, affecting the other.