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Dressage VS. Western Pleasure

This is a discussion on Dressage VS. Western Pleasure within the Western Pleasure forums, part of the Western Riding category
  • Difference between dressage and western pleasure

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    08-06-2012, 02:01 PM
  #11
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by nrhareiner    
No what is insulting is that you take the limited about of WP experiance you have and bassing a judgment on it. Maybe you need to learn a bit more about not only WP but Western Riding in general.
Well, this is the fifth WP trainer I've met who does this. And this one won congress. Btw, I didn't say they ALL do it. I said it was BAsED on MY experience, then dressage and WP are not similiar at all. Frankly, if the majority of dressage instructors I'd met trained this way I'd be disgusted with dressage too. I've met 6 dressage trainers in person and only one behaved that way. I also am not fond of most Saddle seat trainers. I find heir training styles to be too aggressive for my tastes.

Anyway, I spent 5 years riding western under a couple different trainers. I gave it a shot. Didn't like it. Ignore my opinion if you don't like it. It's just an opinion.
     
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    08-06-2012, 02:15 PM
  #12
Trained
The end product is different yet the journey is similar with a good trainer. Just b/c a trainer win congress does not mean it is a good trainer it means he knows who to get the end product needed for that event. Especailly if the win was a 2yo.

I have been around Western Riding style all my riding life and I have also been around a lot of Dressage riders and trainers. At the end of they day there are a lot of similarities in what they do but the end results are different. So while a Dressage rider is looking for their movement to be on the bit I am looking for the same movement to be off the bit. I still expect my horse to stay collected and their head to stay in the position I asked for.
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    08-06-2012, 02:22 PM
  #13
Trained
Still offended by those saying "dressage is the basis for all riding" because it's still not true.
Good riding is good riding and those thinking that they are incorporating """dressage"""" into their riding in whatever discipline are still smoking something. Just because your horse can go sideways and move its head around or canter on the wrong lead does NOT make what you are doing dressage.
I can ride around on a loose rein and stop from a canter - Oh wow I must be incorporating reining into my horse's dressage training... I can also trot really slow well then wow it must be all the WP training I'm doing to help my horse's dressage. Really???
     
    08-06-2012, 02:27 PM
  #14
Trained
Not sure why you think that wastern rider can not use dressage in their training. There are a lot of things that are done in dressage that work well in other desciplines. I do a lot of leg yeilds, shoulder in, and out and so on. Like I said before I ride quite a bit with a dressage rider who shows 2nd leven and working 3rd. She is now even looking at some of the things I do to use with her horse to get her moving better in certain things so it all comes down to good riding and like I like to say. A well broke horse is a well broke horse.
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    08-06-2012, 02:33 PM
  #15
Trained
Just because a horse moves off your leg, sidepasses, yields, etc, does not mean you are doing ANY dressage! You are using good horsemanship-JMHO.

OP-why do you stipulate AQHA Western Pleasure? Is there a difference between that and other breed shows or open shows?

Also-Western "dressage" is not true dressage either.....IMO, it is nothing more than a WP horse who has been taught some "extras".

I have a horse trained for reining. I would never imagine to ride him dressage just because he is super responsive to legs, seat and reins.

Yes, I agree-a good rider, with a good foundation in any discipline can most likely get on a horse of another discipline and do fine. Good riding is good riding.

As far as the person who has never met a WP trainer who is not too rough-Not sure where you live, but you have not looked hard enough. There are rough trainers in EVERY discipline. WP does not have corner on the market.
     
    08-06-2012, 02:36 PM
  #16
Trained
NRHA-we posted at the same time. What says that leg yields, etc are exclusively dressage? Yes, we, in reining use them a lot. Why can't they just be what they are? Did they come from dressage, or did they really come form good horsemanship? Just a question. I personally do not believe that dressage is the basis for anything but dressage. Good riding and horsemanship are, IMO.
     
    08-06-2012, 02:56 PM
  #17
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by nrhareiner    
Not sure why you think that wastern rider can not use dressage in their training. There are a lot of things that are done in dressage that work well in other desciplines. I do a lot of leg yeilds, shoulder in, and out and so on. Like I said before I ride quite a bit with a dressage rider who shows 2nd leven and working 3rd. She is now even looking at some of the things I do to use with her horse to get her moving better in certain things so it all comes down to good riding and like I like to say. A well broke horse is a well broke horse.
Like I said, just because the horse goes sideways does not make it dressage. Does the horse have cadence, connection, reach, impulsion, rhythm and contact during the sideways?? You can go sideways all you want and it's not dressage until you are riding dressage. A dressage test is not about the movements, it's about preparation, quality of gaits and correct, collected execution.

Good riding is good riding, but incorporating principles from another discipline is rarely a good idea (as franknbeans has said). Working with a good trainer within your discipline is however a good idea. I would never take my FEI level dressage horse to a reining clinic just like franknbeans would never dream of riding her high level reiners with my dressage coach. They are two separate, different disciplines although both riders are balanced, supple and working with the horse. The movements may look similar as well but that does not mean the mechanics, traditions or training are compatible within one horse. Yes we could switch horses but we would be like fish out of water because the aids are different, the training is different and the two disciplines are not compatible on a high level.
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    08-06-2012, 03:02 PM
  #18
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by nrhareiner    
... I still expect my horse to stay collected and their head to stay in the position I asked for.
I'll admit this drives me nuts. Western riding is not about collected gaits. It does require a balanced horse, and it does need a horse to 'gather' - to shift it balance to the rear for a period of time to free up the front for a swivel or sharp turn.

To me, western riding is NOT about what works in an arena, but what works in open country & ranching. A collected horse doesn't cover much ground. The thrust from the rear end is being used to support weight instead of create forward motion. I fully believe a horse moving like that could be a blast to ride, but it will also take forever to get from point A to point B.

A collected gait also limits where the horse can put its foot. That is fine in an arena, or maybe in a big grassy field. In much of the Rockies, however, the horse needs to constantly adjust its stride so it won't lame itself on rocks, cactus etc.

There is a world of difference between a relaxed trot and a collected trot. A collected trot is a lot more work for the horse. If you are going from A to B, and you want your horse to do something at B, then a relaxed trot will get you there faster & fresher. My mare will probably never give me a collected trot, but she has a very nice relaxed trot. It moves faster than a walk, is a pleasure to ride, and she doesn't tire herself out.

Historically, western riding has prized independent judgment from the horse. A horse that can take an injured man home, a horse that can follow the cow without constant input, a horse that will go "Boss, there is trouble here..." - those were valued. It didn't value a horse that needed to be told where to put its head - or its foot.

That level of control makes sense for dressage, because dressage isn't about covering a lot of ground and letting the rider concentrate on something besides riding. In dressage, RIDING is the point. On a ranch or trail, riding ENABLES you to do something ELSE.

Neither is right or wrong. They are just different. And there is overlap. When I needed to work on my horses flexibility (and that will be ongoing until they die, I suspect), I got tips from a woman with a strong barrel racing background. I later found the same tips in a dressage book. A flexible horse isn't western or dressage, it is just a good horse and good riding.

OK, rant over until I drink some more caffeine.
     
    08-06-2012, 03:03 PM
  #19
Foal
Just my 2 cents!

dres·sage/drəˈsäZH/

Noun:The art of riding and training a horse in a manner that develops obedience, flexibility, and balance.

It has nothing to do with certain saddles, bridles, shows or breeds...
Ink, Stillstandin, natisha and 2 others like this.
     
    08-06-2012, 03:09 PM
  #20
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by franknbeans    
NRHA-we posted at the same time. What says that leg yields, etc are exclusively dressage? Yes, we, in reining use them a lot. Why can't they just be what they are? Did they come from dressage, or did they really come form good horsemanship? Just a question. I personally do not believe that dressage is the basis for anything but dressage. Good riding and horsemanship are, IMO.
I don't know a whole lot about reining (other than it looks like a lot of fun). Do you get tested on leg yields, shoulder-in, or haunches-in? Would you get more points in your pattern if you use them?
     

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