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Dressage VS. Western Pleasure

This is a discussion on Dressage VS. Western Pleasure within the Western Pleasure forums, part of the Western Riding category
  • Dressage/ western saddle

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    08-11-2012, 09:33 AM
  #201
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by QHriderKE    
If you want to do dressage, do dressage. In a dressage saddle. Not.... yeah....



An awkward mash-up of Western and English styles is what I make of Western Dressage.

While I do agree with this. Doc talked me into it so I am going to be open minded enough to give it a try. However I will not be doing it in that saddle. I think my reining saddle will give me more then enough feel.
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    08-11-2012, 09:34 AM
  #202
Trained
You know what they call the guy who graduated last in med school?
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Docter
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    08-11-2012, 01:03 PM
  #203
Green Broke
JDI - I would also like to point out that Terrific, while an amazing international level jumper, recently got a whopping 50% and last place in a second level class.

I bet he is very adjustable, easy to maneuver, etc... but because he is not a dressage horse, but a jumping horse, and has skills pertaining to doing well in the jumper ring, he does not excel as a dressage horse. Ride like a jumper in the dressage ring, last place, ride like a dressage test in the jumper ring, last place. The two sports might have ideas that will help each other out, but they are not mutually exclusive in training. Good jumping training differs a lot from good dressage training.
     
    08-11-2012, 02:26 PM
  #204
Yearling
Dressage, as a competitive sport, is an incredibly difficult thing to do correctly and requires an immense amount of discipline, hard work, etc. So, when I hear a rider who is doing a slow trot with the horse sucked behind the leg and it's hear cranked down calling that movement a collected trot. I find that I feel as if they do not understand the level of difficulty that it requires to do it properly and I don't feel appreciated as a rider.

So when I hear people say they are doing dressage as they do a "half-pass" I have the same feeling. The half pass cannot be considered doing dressage if there isn't contact, the horse is using the hind end, etc. So basically, unless it's being done by dressage definition, it shouldn't be considered As doing dressage.
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    08-11-2012, 04:30 PM
  #205
Green Broke
It seems a bit odd for me to try to defend dressage as a sport when I have no desire to do it, and have only watched it on videos. When I started riding 4 years ago, it happened that the first books I read were written by dressage riders. Imagine, if you can, a 50 year old guy trying to figure out how you are supposed to shove a hip bone here or there like the books talked about.

I was getting pretty frustrated when I finally read a book about western riding. Whoever wrote it didn't even MENTION any bones. A short time later, I broke down and took some western lessons. I remember when I asked the others in the group what cues they used for a canter. They all looked at me like I was springing a trick question, and finally someone replied, "Um...kick harder?"

That was when I fell in love with western riding. Stop worrying and just go do it. My cues for a canter on Trooper and Mia remain unorthodox, to say the least. I start by trash talking them..."Bet you couldn't canter to save your soul. Bet you'd look like a lame draft horse if you tried. Oh yeah? You don't think so?" Then I lean forward a bit and say something like "Prove it!" and they jump into a canter. Not always the right lead, but a canter. I probably give a squeeze at the same time, if only to help me hang on. I don't think that qualifies as dressage or proper western riding, but the horses seem to enjoy it as much as I do.

With a bit more time, I came to understand the dressage writers were not giving me bad advice. They expected a reader who was smarter and more knowledgeable than they got out of me. They were writing within a framework intended for a goal I didn't have, and thus were setting me up to succeed in something I'll never do.

That is probably why I came to think of dressage as a system of training intended to bring horse & rider to success in a particular style of riding. A good style, just not a style I have a desire to ride. Well, actually I'd love to do it if I could do it without work. Unfortunately, it seems to require work...

In the end, I came to respect and admire dressage for what it is, not for what it is not. It is like the lady who trained our horses telling about a part draft she owned. She spent a year trying to change the way he trotted before she realized that his trot wasn't smooth, but it covered a lot of ground without effort. She concluded that sometimes you have to love the horse for what he is, not for what he can never be.

There is a lot of wisdom in that statement. It often applies to people, too. When I applied it to dressage, I found I could admire dressage and its riders without wanting to emulate them. And only then could I understand what parts to take as training tips, and what parts to leave to dressage riders.

Anyways, this will be my last post on this thread. I've said what I wanted to say, and folks will agree or not. Thanks to all for a 'lively' discussion.
     
    08-12-2012, 02:12 AM
  #206
Yearling
^I just love how you wrote that. Thank you.
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    08-12-2012, 12:23 PM
  #207
Yearling
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~*~anebel~*~    
Still offended by those saying "dressage is the basis for all riding" because it's still not true.
Good riding is good riding and those thinking that they are incorporating """dressage"""" into their riding in whatever discipline are still smoking something. Just because your horse can go sideways and move its head around or canter on the wrong lead does NOT make what you are doing dressage.
I can ride around on a loose rein and stop from a canter - Oh wow I must be incorporating reining into my horse's dressage training... I can also trot really slow well then wow it must be all the WP training I'm doing to help my horse's dressage. Really???
But see....dressage is based on the infamous "scale" or pyramid....so yes, it IS a basis for correct training and performance in the horse. And THAT scale can be incorporated into ALL riding and disciplines...if you want a well trained, responsive horse that knows how to use it's body.

I ride WP, and I also did dressage a LONG time ago. Are they the same...well no. But do they BOTH incorporate that scale? Yes.
     
    08-12-2012, 01:03 PM
  #208
Yearling
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~*~anebel~*~    
Actually, maybe I'll try cutting. Or do you think all the dressage training my horse has would be better applied to barrels? Hmm....

ETA I bet he'd run 1D because of all the dressage he does.
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I'm only on page 12 on this thread...but stopped at this. You are SO TOTALLY missing the point that many people are trying to make on here. In a nutshell, people are talking about dressage (little d) in reference to the training required to make it a Dressage (Capital D) competition horse. We also get it that you don't practice maneuvers, you also get it you don't train cues. So, I have to ask you....what the heck do you do then with your seat and legs. Seat and leg are AIDS which thern perform CUES...hence communication with your horse.
     
    08-12-2012, 01:08 PM
  #209
Yearling
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~*~anebel~*~    
Oh so you mean passage-ing around the barrels won't get me a 1D time? Hmm that's weird because my coach said my horses passage is coming along nicely and since its a dressage maneuver I thought it would be really useful in all other horse sports... weird!
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Wait...I thought you didn't practice manuevers????? So how can your horse's passage be "coming along nicely"...if you aren't teaching it and practicing it? LOL
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    08-12-2012, 05:05 PM
  #210
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by GotaDunQH    
But see....dressage is based on the infamous "scale" or pyramid....so yes, it IS a basis for correct training and performance in the horse. And THAT scale can be incorporated into ALL riding and disciplines...if you want a well trained, responsive horse that knows how to use it's body.

I ride WP, and I also did dressage a LONG time ago. Are they the same...well no. But do they BOTH incorporate that scale? Yes.
Training Pyramid: Rhythm, Relaxation, Connection, Impulsion, Straightness, Collection.
How does WP incorporate the dressage training pyramid?

2010 QH Congress video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZVTJzjCct4) at 2:39 ish, they jog. I see a lot of 4 beat "jog's". Irregular rhythm, no suspension, no connection, no impulsion, and no collection.

At 7:52 they lope. Not one of those horses is straight. Their butts lead their shoulders. Absolutely no suspension phase in the canter. They haven't even lifted their front foot off the ground before the back hoof touches.

Where do you see impulsion here? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2fNb94uVks


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2x3ij8ho2o

Can you tell what gait this horse is doing (pic below)? It's a jog. Why are the left fore and left hind on the ground while the right hind and fore are lifted? It's because the horse lost rhythm and balance. Both of which were hardly there to begin with, and degraded to such a manner that the horse's gait was severely affected on numerous occasions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2x3ij8ho2o

This wasn't the only example. There were so many to choose from.

These video's are supposed to be the "best" of western pleasure competitions. Yet, I can't find examples of even the first level of the training scale.

Rhythm:
     

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