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Dressage VS. Western Pleasure

This is a discussion on Dressage VS. Western Pleasure within the Western Pleasure forums, part of the Western Riding category
  • Gymnastic patterns for western pleasure
  • +lopeing trail patterns

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    08-06-2012, 04:04 PM
  #31
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsms    
I'll admit this drives me nuts. Western riding is not about collected gaits. It does require a balanced horse, and it does need a horse to 'gather' - to shift it balance to the rear for a period of time to free up the front for a swivel or sharp turn.

To me, western riding is NOT about what works in an arena, but what works in open country & ranching. A collected horse doesn't cover much ground. The thrust from the rear end is being used to support weight instead of create forward motion. I fully believe a horse moving like that could be a blast to ride, but it will also take forever to get from point A to point B.

A collected gait also limits where the horse can put its foot. That is fine in an arena, or maybe in a big grassy field. In much of the Rockies, however, the horse needs to constantly adjust its stride so it won't lame itself on rocks, cactus etc.

There is a world of difference between a relaxed trot and a collected trot. A collected trot is a lot more work for the horse. If you are going from A to B, and you want your horse to do something at B, then a relaxed trot will get you there faster & fresher. My mare will probably never give me a collected trot, but she has a very nice relaxed trot. It moves faster than a walk, is a pleasure to ride, and she doesn't tire herself out.

Historically, western riding has prized independent judgment from the horse. A horse that can take an injured man home, a horse that can follow the cow without constant input, a horse that will go "Boss, there is trouble here..." - those were valued. It didn't value a horse that needed to be told where to put its head - or its foot.

That level of control makes sense for dressage, because dressage isn't about covering a lot of ground and letting the rider concentrate on something besides riding. In dressage, RIDING is the point. On a ranch or trail, riding ENABLES you to do something ELSE.

Neither is right or wrong. They are just different. And there is overlap. When I needed to work on my horses flexibility (and that will be ongoing until they die, I suspect), I got tips from a woman with a strong barrel racing background. I later found the same tips in a dressage book. A flexible horse isn't western or dressage, it is just a good horse and good riding.

OK, rant over until I drink some more caffeine.

I understand where you are coming from and will agree that when I am out riding in the open I do ride differnelty then I do when I am working a horse in the area. However the work I do in the arena the collecting and moving of the horses body comes in very handy out riding in the open. It builds proper muscle gives me the ability to change distances while moving be it at the trot or lope and so on. While I agree neither is correct or incorrect collecting a horse and keeping them collected has a place in both. Also even when moving out in the large fast circle those horses are still collected. They have to be collected when going full out to do the stops. So while a nice slow collected gait can be slower it can also be moved out and the horse can go fast still while being collected. Helps keep the balanced.
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    08-06-2012, 04:22 PM
  #32
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by franknbeans    
Not as such, no. Reining is judged on your performance of a given pattern. Each pattern is a combination of the following maneuvers in a given sequence (depending upon the pattern) performed in both directions.
Fast circles
Slow circles
Lead changes
Roll backs
Spins
And then of course, the sliding stop and a back up.

In order to perform each manuever best, you need to know how to use the yields, etc. THey become your "tools" in order to perform the maneuver. You are then scored on each component from+ or- 2 for each from a baseline of 70 points per judge.
Correct me if I am wrong NRHA-you have much more experience than I here........
So, in short, yes, if you use them, you will most likely get more points, as your horse will probably do the maneuver better.

I will expand on this a bit more.

While you do not perform these maneuvers with in the run you do use them with in each maneuver.

Here is an ex. A few years ago I was showing my Dun It mare. We where having a good run. However for some reason in the large fast circle we where going to miss the middle. If you know anything about reining that is a big no no. I realized this about 1/2 way through the maneuver. So I had a few chioces. I could pick up on the reins and rein her over a bit to hit the middle. Would work? Sure it would but it would have also let the judges know what was up. So what could I do so the judges would not know I was not on target to hit the middle? Well I put my inside leg on my mare moved her over in stride and in cadence and she never lefted her head she never change the ark she was on I never moved my hand she never broke gait or speed. Why could I do this with this mare? B/C she has been taught not just to yeild to my leg but to keep the cadence the ark and everything else needed so it was not seen.

I can give a lot of other examples but this is one that happened not too long ago. This also something I am working on with my other mare now.
     
    08-06-2012, 04:22 PM
  #33
Trained
"Yes and how do you get there? By training different maneuvers. You use these maneuvers to perform Dressage. I take the same concepts and incorperate then in to what I do. I do leg yeilds half passes and such and by getting the horse to do these things do not make my horse a dressage horse but what it gives me is a better turn a better rollback and better circles. I still need quality of gait and collection and at times extention preparation is a given no matter what discipline you are doing. It is how you get there."

Read more: Dressage VS. Western Pleasure



No, sorry, I DON'T get there by schooling manouvers. I get there by training in dressage which actually has very little to do with manouvers and quite a lot to do with quality of gait, connection, contact, rhythm, collection, impulsion and cadence (which BTW if you don't know the definitions of, then you're not doing dressage) and developing those in the horse is a lot more than teaching it to go sideways or do a flying change. How I get better circles, better half passes, better collection and better extension is not by practicing all the time, but by gymnastisizing the horse and teaching him to carry his body in a better way. I can spend a whole 45 minute ride on transitions. And another on corners. And then another on strengthening gymnastics. And another on aerobic conditioning and then repeat. Between shows I might do a handful of shoulder ins, a handful of half passes and a lot of hacking, transitions and conditioning and THAT is what makes my horse's tests better. Not schooling movements endlessly. In fact that's probably the best way to burn out a horse and blow his hocks all at once.

Going sideways does not a dressage horse/rider make. Anyone can ride through a pattern.
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    08-06-2012, 04:38 PM
  #34
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~*~anebel~*~    
"Yes and how do you get there? By training different maneuvers. You use these maneuvers to perform Dressage. I take the same concepts and incorperate then in to what I do. I do leg yeilds half passes and such and by getting the horse to do these things do not make my horse a dressage horse but what it gives me is a better turn a better rollback and better circles. I still need quality of gait and collection and at times extention preparation is a given no matter what discipline you are doing. It is how you get there."



No, sorry, I DON'T get there by schooling manouvers. I get there by training in dressage which actually has very little to do with manouvers and quite a lot to do with quality of gait, connection, contact, rhythm, collection, impulsion and cadence (which BTW if you don't know the definitions of, then you're not doing dressage) and developing those in the horse is a lot more than teaching it to go sideways or do a flying change. How I get better circles, better half passes, better collection and better extension is not by practicing all the time, but by gymnastisizing the horse and teaching him to carry his body in a better way. I can spend a whole 45 minute ride on transitions. And another on corners. And then another on strengthening gymnastics. And another on aerobic conditioning and then repeat. Between shows I might do a handful of shoulder ins, a handful of half passes and a lot of hacking, transitions and conditioning and THAT is what makes my horse's tests better. Not schooling movements endlessly. In fact that's probably the best way to burn out a horse and blow his hocks all at once.

Going sideways does not a dressage horse/rider make. Anyone can ride through a pattern.

Again just b/c I may not call something by the same name dose not mean I do not under stand. I use lope others use canter. Both at the end of the day are the same. So I am not going to assume that what I call something is the same things you call something.

I do not practice maneuvers either past teaching them. You have to do them to teach them. The differance and what I am getting at is that a half pass is a maneuver with in one of your tests it is something I use as a means to an end. I will never use a half pass or a leg yeild or any other maneuver in which you may find within one of your test in a reining show. However by teaching my horses to do these things I can then use that training to improve any of the maneuvers that I am scored on.

While I am not training my horse to be a dressage horse as in showing dressage I use the same things to gain better control over my horse. Same thing you are doing. At the end of the day everything you work on is geared to getting a better maneuver the same goes with what I do when I work a horse. I will say with out doubt that Shawn teaching things differently the my trainer does. They both get the same end results or at least that is the hope. They all turn rollback slide lead changes circle and so on. The training that you put on that horse at home to give you more buttons and cues the better the horse will perform at the show.

Heck I even have a button on my horse that gets them to relaxe. I can use it when the horse is standing still or when they are lopeing full out. While this is not a maneuver with in the pattern it is still something I need my horse to know and I have and I would bet continue to use not just at a show but also trail riding or anything.
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    08-06-2012, 04:44 PM
  #35
Trained
A canter and a lope are fundamentally different when executed correctly.

I do not do half passes to gain better control of my horse. I execute them in the competition arena to demonstrate his suppleness, strength and obedience to the aids - which are things I do school for. At the end of the day I am NOT focused on getting a better maneuver I am focused on training a better dressage HORSE as a whole. I also DON'T do training at home to get more buttons and cues. Dressage as a whole is a refinement of basic GO and STOP cues to the point that the horse is balanced on the end of a pin. Every day I am focused on refining these aids, not teaching new ones.

Please stop telling me how I train and what my goals in training are.
     
    08-06-2012, 04:50 PM
  #36
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~*~anebel~*~    
"Yes and how do you get there? By training different maneuvers. You use these maneuvers to perform Dressage. I take the same concepts and incorperate then in to what I do. I do leg yeilds half passes and such and by getting the horse to do these things do not make my horse a dressage horse but what it gives me is a better turn a better rollback and better circles. I still need quality of gait and collection and at times extention preparation is a given no matter what discipline you are doing. It is how you get there."

Read more: Dressage VS. Western Pleasure



No, sorry, I DON'T get there by schooling manouvers. I get there by training in dressage which actually has very little to do with manouvers and quite a lot to do with quality of gait, connection, contact, rhythm, collection, impulsion and cadence (which BTW if you don't know the definitions of, then you're not doing dressage) and developing those in the horse is a lot more than teaching it to go sideways or do a flying change. How I get better circles, better half passes, better collection and better extension is not by practicing all the time, but by gymnastisizing the horse and teaching him to carry his body in a better way. I can spend a whole 45 minute ride on transitions. And another on corners. And then another on strengthening gymnastics. And another on aerobic conditioning and then repeat. Between shows I might do a handful of shoulder ins, a handful of half passes and a lot of hacking, transitions and conditioning and THAT is what makes my horse's tests better. Not schooling movements endlessly. In fact that's probably the best way to burn out a horse and blow his hocks all at once.

Going sideways does not a dressage horse/rider make. Anyone can ride through a pattern.
Wow-really? Insult reining much? I really think that your inuendos are uncalled for, and as bad a generality as I have seen in a long time. Most of us do not "school movements endlessly", in fact-not sure where you got that one-and we are really no more likely to blow out a horses hocks or anything else than any other discipline taught and ridden correctly! WE also may spend an entire training session on transitions, just like you do-or, we may get it right and move on, which, in my case, is more likely, since I wouldn't want to school movements endlessly, you know.

I would LOVE to see your dressage horse, or even your dressage butt on a reining horse-ride through a pattern correctly. Without holding on, falling off in the spin, or flying off at the stop, that is.

I have not insulted your discipline, (tempting as it is)and I would appreciate the same consideration.
     
    08-06-2012, 04:55 PM
  #37
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by franknbeans    
Wow-really? Insult reining much? I really think that your inuendos are uncalled for, and as bad a generality as I have seen in a long time. Most of us do not "school movements endlessly", in fact-not sure where you got that one-and we are really no more likely to blow out a horses hocks or anything else than any other discipline taught and ridden correctly! WE also may spend an entire training session on transitions, just like you do-or, we may get it right and move on, which, in my case, is more likely, since I wouldn't want to school movements endlessly, you know.

I would LOVE to see your dressage horse, or even your dressage butt on a reining horse-ride through a pattern correctly. Without holding on, falling off in the spin, or flying off at the stop, that is.

I have not insulted your discipline, (tempting as it is)and I would appreciate the same consideration.

I am actually not trying to insult reining. I actually have a lot of reiners as friends (shocking I know) as well as people who show competitively on the AQHA circuit including a former WP world champion.

I am simply trying to explain that training reining and training dressage are fundamentally different. From my viewpoint NRHA is suggesting that I do movements every day and am focused on the movements and simply have to ride through a pattern at a show - which is untrue. Same with how it is untrue in reining.
I never said reiners school movements endlessly and I think you are reading a lot of snark into my post that simply isn't there. No need to get your knickers in a twist.
     
    08-06-2012, 05:02 PM
  #38
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~*~anebel~*~    
A canter and a lope are fundamentally different when executed correctly.

I do not do half passes to gain better control of my horse. I execute them in the competition arena to demonstrate his suppleness, strength and obedience to the aids - which are things I do school for. At the end of the day I am NOT focused on getting a better maneuver I am focused on training a better dressage HORSE as a whole.Doesn't a WHOLE equal the sum of its parts? Can you ride a good test without good quality maneuvers (side pass, etc) within that test?I also DON'T do training at home to get more buttons and cues.So what do you call it when you ask your horse to do something? That is not a cue? And you do not train that? Really? Dressage as a whole is a refinement of basic GO and STOP cues to the point that the horse is balanced on the end of a pin. Every day I am focused on refining these aids, not teaching new ones.Every discipline, is some "refinement of the Go and Stop cues", isn't it? Once any horse is trained, in any discipline, most of us refine the cues to get it perfect. That is not unique to you, dressage, or anything else. Even after it is refined, you have to practice to stay sharp. You seem to think that anyone who does not do dressage is an idiot. I assure you, we are not. We just don't choose to do dressage. That does not make us any better or lesser. Period.

Please stop telling me how I train and what my goals in training are.
We all work to refine what our horses do in some way, shape or form. Simply walking can even be refined for heavens sake, if we want to.
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    08-06-2012, 05:05 PM
  #39
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~*~anebel~*~    
I am actually not trying to insult reining. I actually have a lot of reiners as friends (shocking I know) as well as people who show competitively on the AQHA circuit including a former WP world champion.

I am simply trying to explain that training reining and training dressage are fundamentally different. From my viewpoint NRHA is suggesting that I do movements every day and am focused on the movements and simply have to ride through a pattern at a show - which is untrue. Same with how it is untrue in reining.
I never said reiners school movements endlessly and I think you are reading a lot of snark into my post that simply isn't there. No need to get your knickers in a twist.
Then don't put the snark in there. Simple. You ride dressage. NRHA would not suggest you do anything. Believe me.
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    08-06-2012, 05:05 PM
  #40
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~*~anebel~*~    
Please stop telling me how I train and what my goals in training are.
And you need to stop doing the same. Like I have ALREADY stated. I have and do ride with Dressage riders and have taken dressage lesson and clinic with my reiners. So I have a fairly good idea of what is done and why. I am only commenting on why I do these exersizes. I use them to imporve the control I have over my horses so when I go into a class I have the tools needed to get the best score I can. You use the tools you use to get the best ride you can. It is not different.

What I call buttons and cues just just works for control over my horse. Yes I know dressage riders have buttons and cues on there horses too so do not even say you do not.

At the end of the day we are both after the same thing. A quite respoinsive horse who is light on the cues and who looks like he is doing it all on his own.
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