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Dressage VS. Western Pleasure

This is a discussion on Dressage VS. Western Pleasure within the Western Pleasure forums, part of the Western Riding category

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        08-06-2012, 04:55 PM
      #51
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ~*~anebel~*~    
    Ok this is the last time I'm going to say this. I do not train, in my Dressage training, to improve maneuvers. Ever. Period. Done. I do not train cues. I am simply systematically strengthening and improving the horse as a whole. My focus is on refinement and improving the whole horse. That is dressage. Yes, when I show up to a competition and am required to do a test, I will perform maneuvers, but this does not form the basis or goal of my training. Period. Done.

    Thank you DxD.

    ETA fnb I still have not made a statement on how I think reiners train or do not train or what I think they do. I don't know why you are still reading that into my posts.
    Posted via Mobile Device

    Ok so you train as a whole. I would love to know how you train as a whole. When I am training anything I brake it down and work on every aspect of it. Like I stated before I determane what I need to improve set a plan and work that plan. There are times that when I am working on one thing to improve it what I am doing will also improve other things.

    Ex. When I work on backing I am at the same time improving my stop.

    So I would love to know how you work on a horse as a whole with out braking it down into parts? Not bassing I want to know. Again I take dressage lessons to gain more information and tools to improve my reiners. I have found this works very well. I also do reined cow horse for the same reason.
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        08-06-2012, 04:59 PM
      #52
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ~*~anebel~*~    
    Ok this is the last time I'm going to say this. I do not train, in my Dressage training, to improve maneuvers. Ever. Period. Done. I do not train cues. I am simply systematically strengthening and improving the horse as a whole. My focus is on refinement and improving the whole horse. That is dressage. Yes, when I show up to a competition and am required to do a test, I will perform maneuvers, but this does not form the basis or goal of my training. Period. Done.

    Thank you DxD.

    ETA fnb I still have not made a statement on how I think reiners train or do not train or what I think they do. I don't know why you are still reading that into my posts.
    Posted via Mobile Device
    So, the only time you do maneuvers is in competition? Without practicing them at home? They just happen because you have "refined and improved the whole horse"? That is what you said above, is it not? And the horse knows to do them without cues. Hmm. Interesting.

    I get that because you keep referring to reiners, the ones you know, etc.....I did not make it up.

    With that-I think I will go do some maneuvers.....or not.
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        08-06-2012, 05:02 PM
      #53
    Trained
    Well maybe try putting your "plain English" goggles on and go back and read my posts again. I do not train cues, I never said I don't use any
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        08-06-2012, 05:05 PM
      #54
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DraftXDressage    
    Again, you're reading things into posts that simply aren't there. I am talking about what I, personally, do when I'm riding/training a dressage horse. I think, if you will actually read what I wrote, I specifically noted that I was not saying whether different disciplines do it the same way or differently, because I have no experience with those disciplines. I was merely addressing the notion that dressage is about schooling maneuvers/movements/whatever you prefer to call them. It isn't that. At all. And if I were to say that reining is all about schooling spins and sliding stops, I would expect someone to correct me and wouldn't assume that they were somehow implying that their discipline was better than mine in the process.

    I think more then anyting we are having a communication problem with terms.

    Maneuver: Anything called for in a test or patern. So a spin would be a maneuver in reining. A Leg yeald would be a maneuver in dressage.

    You may not school a leg yeild as a maneuver but you do something to improve that maneuver. I use that maneuver to improve maneuvers with in what I do.

    That is my point. You can call them maneuver or tools Call them what ever you want but at the end of the day you get to the end results. I use that journy to get to a different end results. You use your journy to get to a leg yeild with in your test. I use the Leg Yeild as part of the journy to get my the turn as my end results. Now I did not just go out and say hay I think I am going to start doing leg yeilds with my horse. It started out again by brakeing down what a leg yeild consists of and takeing each part teaching my horse those parts then put it all together. From there I use those parts along with outher parts and put them all together to improve my turn.
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        08-06-2012, 05:11 PM
      #55
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ~*~anebel~*~    
    Well maybe try putting your "plain English" goggles on and go back and read my posts again. I do not train cues, I never said I don't use any
    Posted via Mobile Device

    Then how does your horse know what you are asking when you put your leg on the side of the horse? Is that not a cue? Did he not have to learn that? If so you trained a cue. Every time you apply your leg and the horse moves as you wish and you releise you are training that cue. Every time you lead your horse and stop and your horse stops you are training a cue. Every time you ask for your horse to put on a halter you are traininga cue. I can go on and on. Everytime you ask your horse do to something you are training. Everytime you put a work or a motion or anything to that it is a cue and you are training it.
         
        08-06-2012, 05:39 PM
      #56
    Foal
    I think some of the "problems" with the discussion here is what each of us thinks as "training"...I was taught that anytime I am near a horse, I am training that horse...since they are always observing and have a tremendous capacity to "feel" things....

    Therefore, every time we are riding we are in essence - training, now some of y'all have said you are not "training" a quarter pass, merely using the maneuver to "refine" the overall horse...well, I see that as "training" the quarter pass -- so, I think it is just how we perceive what we are doing....

    I know to work on my horse's use of his hindquarters I use rollbacks along a fence...I am not "training" the roll back(unless the horse hasn't done them before), I am using the rollback as a tool to get the horse thinking about getting his legs up under him; however, the mere fact that I am doing the rollback and expect the horse to do it to a certain standard, that is training....at least in my book.

    Therefore, I don't think we need to get "uppity" because we don't use the same language on what we may or may not be doing at a certain time....

    None of that probably made any sense to anyone but me....sorry.
         
        08-06-2012, 06:11 PM
      #57
    Trained
    I actually think a lot of this debate comes from what I'm calling 'easy dressage'. Real dressage, to the extent I can understand it as a total outsider, is a detailed training program, with a high degree of collection at the end.

    The problem with many dressage books and clinics is that they skip all that, and offer in its place a mixed bag of training techniques and present THAT as 'dressage'. But real dressage isn't about a clinic or a technique. Someone who is serious about dressage can attend a clinic and understand what is being taught as a small part of an integrated whole. But an outsider like myself walks away thinking, "Dressage is doing XYZ to get this".

    As an example, I believe dressage works toward collected GAITS. Not the momentary collection that allows one to turn around a barrel or to change directions to follow a calf, but sustained time doing a collected canter. And you cannot start there, because an untrained horse isn't strong enough in the right places to perform a collected gait.

    My mare has given me some hideously unbalanced canters, to the point of scaring us both. She has also, for about 10 seconds, given me what felt like a collected canter. It was wonderful while it lasted, but she isn't capable of giving me a collected canter for more than a few strides, nor do I have the technique to teach her to give it to me longer.

    That is why it sounds strange to me to hear of someone saying their 3 year old gelding collects, or that western pleasure is ridden on collected horses. When I look at a world level WP performance, I'm not seeing anything that I recognize as collection - and I'm NOT a huge dressage aficionado. Same with reining. I just watched a half-dozen videos of top reiners winning, and I didn't see collected GAITS.

    I'm not belittling ANY competitive riding, because I couldn't stay on good horses in competitive riding - not WP, nor reining, not dressage, not jumping - I'm just not a very good rider. Nor could I train a horse to do any of that. But I can see what I see, and that is why I get upset at the idea that someone is going to teach their horse 'some dressage'. Or that their 3 year old collects. Or that dressage is the basis for all riding.

    It is like asking a black belt to give a newbie a clinic in martial arts. He can give a demo, but true martial arts is a lifetime pursuit and philosophy, not a way of kicking someone. It is like learning how a pawn & bishop move, and then claiming you've studied chess. It misses the point. And when it is done in modern western riding, it seems to me it often ends up screwing the horse - the whole "How do I collect his head" syndrome. I have no desire to teach my horse dressage, but I have even less desire to teach her 'easy dressage'. And what I've overheard from some local western trainers this last year was pretty much all easy dressage.
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        08-06-2012, 06:22 PM
      #58
    Trained
    Keep in mind that there are different levels of collection. So much so that a horse will not move but will still be collected and loping. So when you stay you watch a top reiner showing and you are not seeing collection you are. If the horse was not collected he would be falling all over the place and loosing his footing. It is just not the tight up right collection you see with other disciplines. That same horse could be put on the bit and have his rear pushed all the way to his chest and lope. I know I have had a rider who thaught they could ride on my one mare. It was kind of funny until my mare got a bit pissed.
         
        08-06-2012, 07:42 PM
      #59
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bsms    
    I actually think a lot of this debate comes from what I'm calling 'easy dressage'. Real dressage, to the extent I can understand it as a total outsider, is a detailed training program, with a high degree of collection at the end.
    Yes, collection for sure but it is also about extension too. Being able to collect but also be able to be pliable in that collection and then able to also let it out with out losing control or abandoning contact. Like an accordion.

    I understand what you are saying about "easy dressage" and that makes sense to me. When you think of dressage you think of GP riders and high level tests while others are more interested in learning from lower level dressage.

    The only problem I see with that is that it insinuates a disconnect. To say that "easy dressage" is not "dressage" is presuming that you do not need the lowest of low levels in order to achieve the top which is not true at all.

    Not trying to argue just giving another perspective.
         
        08-06-2012, 08:48 PM
      #60
    Foal
    NRHAreiner: what are you calling a half-pass? You seem to use it interchangeably with leg yielding. .
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