Spur Cues - Page 6
   

       The Horse Forum > Riding Horses > Western Riding > Western Pleasure

Spur Cues

This is a discussion on Spur Cues within the Western Pleasure forums, part of the Western Riding category
  • Frank barnett ocala
  • Frank barnett horse trainer ocala

Like Tree2Likes

 
LinkBack Thread Tools
    07-09-2010, 03:25 AM
  #51
Foal
I don't understand why it's so bad. It's not harming the horse or rider or endangering any other riders, so...?
     
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
    07-09-2010, 05:16 AM
  #52
Yearling
'Harming the horse' is subjective. Most horses (if not all?) that are trained this way are crabby. Again, you still haven't answered the question.. Just asked another question in response.

The reason why you can't answer the question is because there is no good answer.

Or you could give the immature, backwards answer of 'i don't care, it wins'. Hundreds of horses are still winning with blocked tails. Doesn't make it right, does it?

If you are going to question your governing association, for God's sake, have reasoning behind it rather then 'i don't care'. You sound ridiculous--because 'i don't care' REALLY means 'i don't know how to get the same results a better way.'

Still waiting on that video too...
     
    07-09-2010, 05:39 AM
  #53
Foal
I really don't understand why it's such a bad thing. You didn't answer my question, either. I don't have an answer. Hell, I'm not even on the show circuit yet. And tail-blocking is FAR more dangerous than spur cues are because infections and muscle deteriorations occur, rather than the occasional "crabby horse", and as far as THAT goes, that is not true. The horses I've seen that are spur cued are far from crabby, and in fact are about as quiet as any horse I've ever ridden.
     
    07-09-2010, 10:45 AM
  #54
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by wild_spot    
^ That is the exact same thinking that has created the Hypp issue we have today.

It is also the same thinking that ensures NOTHING will ever progress.

If my association had told me NOT to do something, whether it was pinning or not, I would quit it. Especially when it isn't the ONLY way or the ONLY way that wins. Not every horse out there winning is spur cue trained.
ya, because spur stops and hypp are soooo much alike.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mayfieldk    
'Harming the horse' is subjective. Most horses (if not all?) that are trained this way are crabby. Again, you still haven't answered the question.. Just asked another question in response.

The reason why you can't answer the question is because there is no good answer.

Or you could give the immature, backwards answer of 'i don't care, it wins'. Hundreds of horses are still winning with blocked tails. Doesn't make it right, does it?

If you are going to question your governing association, for God's sake, have reasoning behind it rather then 'i don't care'. You sound ridiculous--because 'i don't care' REALLY means 'i don't know how to get the same results a better way.'

Still waiting on that video too...
none of the spur stopped horses are crabby, honestly unless you have personally trained and worked with them you can tmake that judgement.

Also, blocked tails are illegal, so what do you want us to do? Go and kill them all and never show them again?

I already have reasoning-it wins. Im not going to pay tons of money on my horse and training and shows to lose, my horse can stop with spurs, he can stop without sours. It doesnt matter.

I have a few videos, not of horsemanship though, its mostly trail and showmanship and english pleasure.
     
    07-09-2010, 10:45 AM
  #55
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by SavvyHill    
I really don't understand why it's such a bad thing. You didn't answer my question, either. I don't have an answer. Hell, I'm not even on the show circuit yet. And tail-blocking is FAR more dangerous than spur cues are because infections and muscle deteriorations occur, rather than the occasional "crabby horse", and as far as THAT goes, that is not true. The horses I've seen that are spur cued are far from crabby, and in fact are about as quiet as any horse I've ever ridden.
exactly!
     
    07-09-2010, 01:11 PM
  #56
Yearling
The lack of logic on this board makes my head hurt.

"I really don't understand why it's such a bad thing. You didn't answer my question, either. I don't have an answer. Hell, I'm not even on the show circuit yet. And tail-blocking is FAR more dangerous than spur cues are because infections and muscle deteriorations occur, rather than the occasional "crabby horse", and as far as THAT goes, that is not true. The horses I've seen that are spur cued are far from crabby, and in fact are about as quiet as any horse I've ever ridden."

One--yes I did answer your question, and in the first sentence. Please read for comprehension.

Two--if you are not even showing yet, then why do you think your opinion is better thought-out then the associations'? Or even your trainer's, for that matter? The AQHA and APHA KNOW that there are a lot of horses trained with spur stops/spur riding. And they still decided to put out a video and listed it, by name and with example, as something that needs to go...even though they knew a lot of people would have to change the way they rode. That's what they want.

I was never comparing the risks of tail blocking to spur stops. I was comparing the fact that almost every trainer worth his salt blocked tails--and I know for a fact several world show trainers that still do. It was a FASHION that hid the riders inability to ride. THIS IS WHAT SPUR STOPS DO!! A trainer wants his horses to win. A trainer knows his clients do not ride well (Hence... the reason we have trainers in the first place.). Stopping a horse off your seat is very advanced... something 90% of his clients can't do. So he puts a spur stop on them so even a monkey could stop the horse. So then the horses win, and a bunch of them, cause lets face it--there's a lot of poor riders out there that just have a lot of money. They can't learn finesse or a subtle rein cue or a stop with their seat--but they CAN hold their spurs in the horse's side.

This is how a fashion starts.

You want to be a good rider? Learn to stop your horse off of your seat alone. Learn to slow your horse off your seat. All of these things are hard... and guess what? There are people out there, winning classes, using these methods. It's just that no one TALKS about it, because good riding is just good riding. I don't understand why the two of your are thinking that spur riding is the next coming of christ--when there is a PROVEN way to do it BETTER. It's just harder... and takes a more advanced rider. There are hundreds of horses that win Worlds and Congress without a spur stop, so even your logic of 'it wins' is incredibly faulty.

Also, do you know what crabby means? It doesn't mean hot. A lot of crabby horses I know are quiet. They go around with their ears back, their mouths tight, and their tail swishes at every 'spur' command. Because news flash, honey--horses don't like metal in their side, no matter how soft you think it is.

"ya, because spur stops and hypp are soooo much alike."

You have a problem with logic, and missed the point of that analogy. Please try again.

"none of the spur stopped horses are crabby, honestly unless you have personally trained and worked with them you can tmake that judgement."

Woo! This sentence is a winner. Yes, every one I've ever seen is crabby or tense. But I can't make that judgment unless I've trained one? ...I have eyes, dear.

However, since you're adamant about that, I have. I've trained with several world show AQHA and APHA trainers, and when you're riding one of their horses and they say 'put a spur stop on it', you do. So I have ridden AND trained them.

And my point still stands.

"also, blocked tails are illegal, so what do you want us to do? Go and kill them all and never show them again?"

Never said that, love. You are aware that A LOT of people still do this, yes? You are ALSO aware that a lot of the time, it's the spur trained horses? You can't show a horse that wrings its tail, and a lot of spur trained horses do this. So... They get an appointment with the vet and end up crapping on their tail for the rest of their life because someone said, 'well it wins.'

"i already have reasoning-it wins. Im not going to pay tons of money on my horse and training and shows to lose, my horse can stop with spurs, he can stop without sours. It doesnt matter."

Sure it matters. If it did, you wouldn't use them, and you wouldn't fight so hard about using them if it didn't matter.

You know, with that logic and your statement, it reads in summary: 'I pay a lot of money to show, and I'm not doing that and losing.'

You DO KNOW that that VERY SAME mentality is what gets these horses into trouble in the first place? Why their were peanut rollers, why the show pen got SO SLOW, why we have 4-beaters, why horses were made anemic before they were shown, why people tie their horse's head up hours and hours before a class so that he physically can't lift it during the show--

All of these things have come about because 'it wins'.

The horses cannot protect theirselves. This is why WE have to look at ourselves and see what can be changed to ride them better, to treat them better, and to show them better. The minute you put showing and winning before your horse, your horse loses.

"i have a few videos, not of horsemanship though, its mostly trail and showmanship and english pleasure."

Well that's a lie, because before you said, and I quote:

"ok il post a video. Might take a few days though."

I guess he looked too crabby on the video that you do have, so we don't get to see it.

Bummer.
karebear41486 likes this.
     
    07-09-2010, 02:58 PM
  #57
Weanling
Quote:
SPUR STOP SAVVY
Excerpt from Article:
Is this controversial training technique a legitimate means of control or is it responsible for some of the show pen's most visible ills? According to some experts, it's both.

Spur stop. It's a contradictory term. After all, the first definition of "spur" in Webster's Dictionary is, "any of various pointed devices worn on the heel by horsemen to urge the horse forward." Using spurs to slow or stop a horse in lieu of rein contact is counter to their use by centuries of horse people.

It's also controversial. The technique of teaching your horse that leg-on cues mean "whoa" rather than "go" has been blamed in part for the ruination of natural movement in Western pleasure and other events. That head-bobbing, herky-jerky, ultra-slow lope of pleasure infamy can often be traced directly to a spur jabbed in the horse's gut. But advocates argue that, when used correctly and in moderation, the spur stop can be a good thing. Not only is it an "emergency brake" to give amateur riders added control, they say, but it also can help keep a horse balanced and his movement soft and collected.

In this article we'll bring you both sides of the controversy. We'll tell you where the spur stop came from, why it became popular, and how it became controversial. If, after reading this you want to learn to install--or uninstall--it in your horse, we'll give you some tips for doing so from world champion Western pleasure trainer Cleve Wells.

As with many contemporary training techniques, the spur stop has its roots in the battlefield. "It's a *******ized version of an old technique of immobilizing the horse with leg and hand. It probably has its origins with the Arabs, who used only spurs to stop their horses in battle, leaving their hands free to fight," explains Frank Barnett, a top Williston, Florida, trainer and avid student of classical horsemanship. "It was later used by the French and Portuguese masters as a method of complete domination. The French called it, effets d'ensemble. "In the Western show world, it's used in combination with a horse's haunch or shoulder canted in to shorten his gait," he continues. "The spur stop is a psychological tool as well: Some trainers pinch with their spurs then grab hold of the bit until the horse learns to keep his head down when he feels spur pressure. They then program their horses to lock into that frame without rein contact. It's complete immobilization. Used in the extreme, it's called 'capturing' the horse."

In an event like Western pleasure, in which a rider is penalized for excessive speed--and can be marked down for rating the horse using rein aids--it's easy to see the appeal. Add to that the "drape" (loose rein to the point of no contact) those horses are shown on and it's no surprise the spur stop is as common as the silver on a competitor's saddle.
"It's been around for at least the last 25 years," maintains AQHA world champion pleasure horse trainer Troy Compton, of Norman, Oklahoma. "Every horse I've ridden has had some degree of the spur stop. When I use it, I don't have to go to my hand when I'm showing."

Sums up Cleve, "With the spur stop, your feet become your hands. Properly used, it helps keep your horse soft and helps you maintain a conversation in the ring without using your reins. For instance, if a horse with a squeaky saddle passes me on the rail, which could make my horse lift his head and lose focus, I might tap him with a spur to say, 'Stay focused on me.' Staying in his mind in a positive way keeps out the negative."

Cleve also sees the spur stop as a benefit for novice and non-pro riders. "Western pleasure is an entry-level sport, so it has many novice riders. It takes a lot of motion to pick up loose reins and get contact with your horse's mouth if you get into trouble. It's much easier for amateurs to squeeze their legs in his belly to regain control. With a spur stop, you know that horse will immediately slow down or stop."

Trainers see other benefits, as well. AQHA world champion trainer and judge Tina Kaven, of Gordonville, Texas, says she finds the spur stop a valuable tool for helping a horse regain balance on the rail. "When a horse speeds up, it's generally because he's out of balance. So instead of saying, 'Don't you dare!' with my spur, I'm asking, 'Where are you out of balance?' I'll then use my leg to help fix him. That takes horsemanship. It's not just digging in with your spur like a lot of people do. That distorts your horse's stride."

And therein lies the controversy. "In my personal opinion, any maneuver to control a horse's body is good unless it's taken to extremes," says Alex Ross, American Quarter Horse Association Executive Director of Judges, and a former Western pleasure trainer. "The spur stop started out as a helpful aid. It got overused and caused undesirable traits."

Those traits reveal themselves in the way a horse moves. "Overused, the spur stop causes a lack of forward motion," explains Alex. "It hinders rather than controls forward motion, which causes the horse to bob his head and not finish the stride with his front legs. Overuse is very prevalent. We're seeing more and more people who don't know how to correctly use aids for control."

According to Tina, it all goes back to balance. "Head bobbing is a balance issue," she states. "If your horse is on his forehand, he's unbalanced. Too much spur stop can cause that. A horse will try to lift his back to escape the pressure. It's easier for him to do that if he drops his head and neck. That binds him up; there's no lightness of movement."

In a short time, overuse can cause a horse to drop, rather than lift, his back. "When you constantly pinch with your spur, a horse will soon drop into the pressure rather than lifting his rib cage to escape it; your spur becomes like a kick stand," Cleve explains. "Dropping down like that causes him to lose lift in his back and shift more weight to his front end, which further trashes his movement. The horse gets real resentful. Horses ridden like that don't have long careers."

To spur stop proponents, leg and spur contact replace rein contact, enabling you to Slow, stop; and even back your horse without going to your hand. Unfortunately, overuse of the aid by some trainers has helped read to the unnatural movement; seen in Western pleasure, hunter under saddle, and other events.

So is it illegal? "AQHA doesn't have any position on the spur stop" says Alex. "It's a technique used in training, and isn't a violation of any rules. We don't have a position on how people show their horses as long as they do it by the rules."
So, see, you can twist it any way you want.

<off to ride my happy & not crabby spur trained horse...>
     
    07-09-2010, 03:17 PM
  #58
Started
Quote:
Originally Posted by mayfieldk    
The lack of logic on this board makes my head hurt.

"I really don't understand why it's such a bad thing. You didn't answer my question, either. I don't have an answer. Hell, I'm not even on the show circuit yet. And tail-blocking is FAR more dangerous than spur cues are because infections and muscle deteriorations occur, rather than the occasional "crabby horse", and as far as THAT goes, that is not true. The horses I've seen that are spur cued are far from crabby, and in fact are about as quiet as any horse I've ever ridden."

One--yes I did answer your question, and in the first sentence. Please read for comprehension.

Two--if you are not even showing yet, then why do you think your opinion is better thought-out then the associations'? Or even your trainer's, for that matter? The AQHA and APHA KNOW that there are a lot of horses trained with spur stops/spur riding. And they still decided to put out a video and listed it, by name and with example, as something that needs to go...even though they knew a lot of people would have to change the way they rode. That's what they want.

I was never comparing the risks of tail blocking to spur stops. I was comparing the fact that almost every trainer worth his salt blocked tails--and I know for a fact several world show trainers that still do. It was a FASHION that hid the riders inability to ride. THIS IS WHAT SPUR STOPS DO!! A trainer wants his horses to win. A trainer knows his clients do not ride well (Hence... the reason we have trainers in the first place.). Stopping a horse off your seat is very advanced... something 90% of his clients can't do. So he puts a spur stop on them so even a monkey could stop the horse. So then the horses win, and a bunch of them, cause lets face it--there's a lot of poor riders out there that just have a lot of money. They can't learn finesse or a subtle rein cue or a stop with their seat--but they CAN hold their spurs in the horse's side.

This is how a fashion starts.

You want to be a good rider? Learn to stop your horse off of your seat alone. Learn to slow your horse off your seat. All of these things are hard... and guess what? There are people out there, winning classes, using these methods. It's just that no one TALKS about it, because good riding is just good riding. I don't understand why the two of your are thinking that spur riding is the next coming of christ--when there is a PROVEN way to do it BETTER. It's just harder... and takes a more advanced rider. There are hundreds of horses that win Worlds and Congress without a spur stop, so even your logic of 'it wins' is incredibly faulty.

Also, do you know what crabby means? It doesn't mean hot. A lot of crabby horses I know are quiet. They go around with their ears back, their mouths tight, and their tail swishes at every 'spur' command. Because news flash, honey--horses don't like metal in their side, no matter how soft you think it is.

"ya, because spur stops and hypp are soooo much alike."

You have a problem with logic, and missed the point of that analogy. Please try again.

"none of the spur stopped horses are crabby, honestly unless you have personally trained and worked with them you can tmake that judgement."

Woo! This sentence is a winner. Yes, every one I've ever seen is crabby or tense. But I can't make that judgment unless I've trained one? ...I have eyes, dear.

However, since you're adamant about that, I have. I've trained with several world show AQHA and APHA trainers, and when you're riding one of their horses and they say 'put a spur stop on it', you do. So I have ridden AND trained them.

And my point still stands.

"also, blocked tails are illegal, so what do you want us to do? Go and kill them all and never show them again?"

Never said that, love. You are aware that A LOT of people still do this, yes? You are ALSO aware that a lot of the time, it's the spur trained horses? You can't show a horse that wrings its tail, and a lot of spur trained horses do this. So... They get an appointment with the vet and end up crapping on their tail for the rest of their life because someone said, 'well it wins.'

"i already have reasoning-it wins. Im not going to pay tons of money on my horse and training and shows to lose, my horse can stop with spurs, he can stop without sours. It doesnt matter."

Sure it matters. If it did, you wouldn't use them, and you wouldn't fight so hard about using them if it didn't matter.

You know, with that logic and your statement, it reads in summary: 'I pay a lot of money to show, and I'm not doing that and losing.'

You DO KNOW that that VERY SAME mentality is what gets these horses into trouble in the first place? Why their were peanut rollers, why the show pen got SO SLOW, why we have 4-beaters, why horses were made anemic before they were shown, why people tie their horse's head up hours and hours before a class so that he physically can't lift it during the show--

All of these things have come about because 'it wins'.

The horses cannot protect theirselves. This is why WE have to look at ourselves and see what can be changed to ride them better, to treat them better, and to show them better. The minute you put showing and winning before your horse, your horse loses.

"i have a few videos, not of horsemanship though, its mostly trail and showmanship and english pleasure."

Well that's a lie, because before you said, and I quote:

"ok il post a video. Might take a few days though."

I guess he looked too crabby on the video that you do have, so we don't get to see it.

Bummer.
BRAVO!!

I agree COMPLETELY with everything you said, and I cannot have said it better!

Sorellhorse, I usually respect you on this forum with all of your advice, but you are representing the very reason that alot of people hate showing. You do whatever it takes to win, no matter if its bad for the horse, because WOW, it would be a shame to lose money! Heaven forbin you show for FUN!!

There are so many more of this type in the show world. It saddens me.

GottaRide: Ha! You're REALLY using quotes from Cleve Wells to show how its not harmful for the horse? Cleve Wells in a horse trainer from hell! Check it:
http://horsetrainersfromhell.blogspo...ells-saga.html
     
    07-09-2010, 03:29 PM
  #59
Started
And another link:
Big Names Behaving Badly… Fugly Horse of the Day
     
    07-09-2010, 03:47 PM
  #60
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eliz    
GottaRide: Ha! You're REALLY using quotes from Cleve Wells to show how its not harmful for the horse? Cleve Wells in a horse trainer from hell! Check it:
Horse trainers from hell: The Cleve Wells saga

My quote is from a magazine article that happened to quote Wells. It also quoted other trainers (Troy Compton, Tina Kaven) as well as Alex Ross, an executive director for AQHA. My highlighted quote was made by Alex Ross.

I've also read the APHA rulebook (the association that I show under). No where in the rulebook does it state that the use of a "spur stop" is prohibited. I would think that if an organization were so strongly against a particular training method that said organization would state as such in their rules. They've prohibited alcohol blocks in tails & other abusive practices, yet spur stops and spur training is still allowed. I wonder why? Because it is an effective method when done properly. (As a note, the rulebook does address many of the common problems seen when a spur stop/spur training is overly used. But also note that these common problems do not solely occur in spur trained horses.)
     

Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Spur of the Moment Drawing! ShezaCharmer Horse Artwork 1 06-15-2010 10:17 PM
WTB: spur straps ADollopofDaisy Tack and Equipment Classifieds 4 04-09-2010 06:10 PM
Spur Training Mira Horse Training 18 03-29-2009 07:17 PM
Spur Stop/ Spur breaking Tessa Bear Horse Training 62 02-26-2008 07:31 PM
Spur training. Id like your help. Karen Horse Horse Training 0 02-11-2008 03:23 PM



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:58 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0