What's the point... - Page 4 - The Horse Forum
 
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post #31 of 132 Old 06-23-2010, 11:17 PM
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Originally Posted by sorelhorse View Post
no. No no no. You just don't get it. A lope is just a very slow 3 BEAT canter. These horses are probably more collected then most of the horses you ride. Just saying.
Oh so you have ridden a grand prix dressage horse then?

If you want it bluntly they are dull with no animation and no where near being collected in any form.

It is very very obvious you have no understanding of the muscular changes that occur in collection.
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post #32 of 132 Old 06-23-2010, 11:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spyder View Post
Oh so you have ridden a grand prix dressage horse then?

If you want it bluntly they are dull with no animation and no where near being collected in any form.

It is very very obvious you have no understanding of the muscular changes that occur in collection.
honestly, how can you say dressage horses are not collected?
Have you ridden an AQHA Western Pleasure Champion?
And FYI-Im pretty sire I know what collection is. :)

Western Pleasure-because I can handle perfection.
Western Pleasure-the best way to have fun<3
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post #33 of 132 Old 06-23-2010, 11:36 PM
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Originally Posted by sorelhorse View Post
honestly, how can you say dressage horses are not collected?
Have you ridden an AQHA Western Pleasure Champion?
And FYI-Im pretty sire I know what collection is. :)
I was referring to the videos posted here in that they are dull and listless.

But thanks for agreeing with me that a dressage horse IS collected. Now if you can only even begin to understand that the horses posted in the videos are NOT collected we can make some progress.

BTW....I have ridden western pleasure ( not a quarter horse though)
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post #34 of 132 Old 06-23-2010, 11:43 PM
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Stormy, if you want posts like this to not come off as attacking or inciting, then paying a little more attention to the title and phrasing might be in order. Titling the thread 'What is the point...' makes others feel you believe there is no point. I looked in this thread when it was first posted and thought to myself 'Another thinly veiled dig at WP' which may or may not be true, but if that is how the OP is coming off then maybe the wording should be considered.

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post #35 of 132 Old 06-23-2010, 11:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spyder View Post
I was referring to the videos posted here in that they are dull and listless.

But thanks for agreeing with me that a dressage horse IS collected. Now if you can only even begin to understand that the horses posted in the videos are NOT collected we can make some progress.

BTW....I have ridden western pleasure ( not a quarter horse though)
I have no problem saying dressage horses are collected. THEY ARE! Its obvious when looking at them. Just like western pleasure. You can't really say they are dull and listless unless youve interacted with them. They arent. A video can only capture so much.

Western Pleasure-because I can handle perfection.
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post #36 of 132 Old 06-23-2010, 11:59 PM
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I don't see how WP horses are collected?

I see horses built downhill, heavy on their forehands, butts high with no engagement and no impulsion and not tracking up.

I'm curious to know what "Collection" is you to?

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post #37 of 132 Old 06-24-2010, 12:03 AM
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Originally Posted by sorelhorse View Post
i have no problem saying dressage horses are collected. THEY ARE! Its obvious when looking at them. Just like western pleasure. You can't really say they are dull and listless unless youve interacted with them. They arent. A video can only capture so much.
Just to give you the benefit of the doubt, tell me what collection is. Lets put your words into something beyond saying "they are collected".

Please be specific and please do NOT relate it to any discipline.
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post #38 of 132 Old 06-24-2010, 06:47 AM
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GREAT posts Smrobs, MIEventer, and Spyder.

Collection is so not just going slower. It is scary how many trainers and instructors (in all disciplines) teach their students that collection means go slow and extension means go fast.
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post #39 of 132 Old 06-24-2010, 09:09 AM
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I wish everyone reading this thread would also go read this one:

collection

Where Spyder and I essentially discuss the same issues.

For the record, I love QHs and have no beef with Western Pleasure. It's a show discipline like any other, with some fabulous horses, some not so fabulouos and some training and identity issues. The criticisms leveled at WP can also apply to hunters, eventers and dressage.

WP horses move both in a slow and shortened stride, the good ones also keep cadence and rhythm. This is not the same as collection. When horsemen feel that slow, shortened stride with the exaggerated cadence, they assume that's collection. It's not. At least not in the most precise usage of the word - collection is a widely misunderstood and widely misapplied term.

I like Spyder's definition better than my wordier one;collection fundamentally changes the horse's balance, from weighted 60 - 75% on the front end to weighted evenly on all four legs. Weighted evenly, or collected, by constrast, feels like sitting behind and lighter in front.

So, to all the folks that want to insist that WP horses travel collected - okay, if that's the way the word is used inside your discipline, go ahead and call it that. Just know that it's not the same collection as the original, classical meaning or of a dressage horse above second level; and be prepared for horseman in other disciplines not to accept that terminology.

AND it is possible to like QHs, appreciate WP and still understand the terminology across disciplines, as well as the most precise definition.
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post #40 of 132 Old 06-24-2010, 09:20 AM
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No one said collection = slow.

This simple question has quickly become a debate that has escalated to competition mode. It's a competition that can not be won. Western Pleasure folks work VERY hard to acheive the ride. Dressage riders also work hard. No one is doubting that. What people aren't stating is that there are a number of similarities between certain Western disciplines and dressage. For instance, the competitive-trail horse. A trail class includes maneuvers similar to those in a lower-level dressage test: turn on the forehand, turn on the haunches, controlled backing, lateral work, and exacting up and down transitions.

Horses trained in Western riding, horsemanship, and reining are fairly adaptable to dressage. For example, the Western pivot, in which the horse pivots on his inside hind leg, changes to turn on the haunches in dressage - through the rider's inside leg directing him to stay "forward" while his hind feet continue to step around throughout the turn.

So... You can type that western pleasure folks are "morons" until your fingers are blue. 'Cus you "aint" changin' my opinions!

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