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What's the point...

This is a discussion on What's the point... within the Western Pleasure forums, part of the Western Riding category

     
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        06-26-2010, 10:35 AM
      #81
    Banned
    Sorry guys, I thought long and hard about posting again but I can't leave this alone.

    Thanks for all the compliments and praise, btw.

    Collection, in its precisest, dressage oriented meaning, is much more than driving from the hind end. Driving from the hind end is good, but at a much lower place on the training scale than true sustained collection. Collection, in the precise, dressage meaning, *must* include lowering of the croup and increased angulation of the hind limbs, like the photo of the grey horse in the other thread on this subject.

    Spyder's definition of collection (weighting all four evenly) is excellent, but its a subtle definition and hard to measure by eye. Lowering of the croup, increased angulation of the hind limbs and driving from behind is easier to discern by eye.

    If you want to say that WP horses and good hunters under saddle are collected, rather than connected (the term I prefer, and that the Littaeur/Wright/Morris school of forward riding uses) just because they meet the standard of driving from behind, then you need a different term to distinguish that from a dressage horse's sustained collection as defined above.

    Using the same term to describe different but equally desirable goals depending on discipline is confusing and lends more fire to the argument than it warrants.

    Finally, as I was thinking about this subject as I rode this morning, I am frequently question some poster's assertions that reiners and grand prix jumpers not only "do dressage" but perform the equivelent of upper level movements in true collection. And in mulling this over, I've come to the conclusion that there are real differences, and the big one is that it is not *sustained* collection. While jumpers or reiners might need to briefly collect to execute a turn or movement, in between those movements they go in a forward, connected frame. Horses capable of suceeding at the upper levels of dressage must be able to *sustain* collection. The hallmark of a correctly trained dressage horse is that they sustain true collection and quality of movement in between the movements or "tricks."
         
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        06-26-2010, 12:48 PM
      #82
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by maura    

    Spyder's definition of collection (weighting all four evenly) is excellent, but its a subtle definition and hard to measure by eye. Lowering of the croup, increased angulation of the hind limbs and driving from behind is easier to discern by eye.
    Good post.

    The reason I did not go any further in my definition is that I was trying to show that collection is there and available to all disciplines.

    Collection STARTS with the even loading of all four legs that allow the horse to move easily from the riders commands. This does not show as an lowering of the rear end simply because it is the first step in a road that would lead to more advanced collection.

    It is from that first step that the road will veer to whatever is required from the horse, either more advanced collection, leading to higher level dressage movements or remain or slightly advance for disciplines not requiring this level of collection.

    It is this fine line that that is the basis of misunderstanding between die heat dressage people and those that will never need collection at its more advanced stage. The problem occurs when some take a shortened gait to be what I described but in reality it is not for it does not satisfy the even loading requirement.


    Maybe this will explain..............

    Just to use an anology if you took a balloon that was eglongated ,shaped like the body of the horse and put your hand over each end and squeezed you would notice that the middle of the ballon would expand outward. This is the same as the ribs of the horse expanding outward and the rider would feel this as a "filling out" of their legs or much like their legs were being pushed outward. This "filling out" can cease at any time when the rider feels they have enough collection to do whatever they wish. A dressage rider will take it to its ultimate end (what Maura is describing) and by expanding the body there is now room for the rear legs to move more and more underneath the horse upon the rider's asking and only then will you see the lowering of the croup and what dressage riders call "true collection" but in actually collection began very much earlier.

    Geeze after all this I hope someone understands now.
         
        06-26-2010, 06:22 PM
      #83
    Green Broke
    Amazing posts both of you!!! I'm learning so much about true collection from you two :)
    Posted via Mobile Device
         
        06-26-2010, 06:40 PM
      #84
    Weanling
    OK, I've already said what collection is...thats it..not much more.
    And how can you say someone has "broader experience". Remember, this is the internet, you can't judge people like that.

    So heres the deal. In 99% of shows if you enter your "collected" horse against any good WP horse, the WP horse will win. (not jumping or racing, just a standard horse show) WP horses are like the kings of the show industry. How could they get there if they aren't collected? Are you saying all the judges don't know what they are judging? No. WP horses are collected, and have impulsion from behind.
         
        06-26-2010, 07:00 PM
      #85
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sorelhorse    
    How could they get there if they aren't collected? Are you saying all the judges don't know what they are judging? No. WP horses are collected, and have impulsion from behind.

    They win because the judges want them like that.

    Don't forget it was the judges that kept pinning the "peanut rollers" and the 4 beaters. The judges will influence what trainers will do simply because competitors want to win so they will go to trainers that will train horses that will win under what judges want.

    Do judges know what collection is...hard to say...some may and some may not but the bottom line is..change the judges and you will change what is being shown.

    They basically want apple bobbers that are on the forehand with dragging hind legs. There is no collection, there is no impulsion.
         
        06-26-2010, 07:06 PM
      #86
    Weanling
    Well ya, western pleasure horses are desireable.

    At pinto worlds this year they had a variety of judges-and apha judge, a pony judge and an arabian judge. Yet still the horses that won were like the ones in the video:)
         
        06-26-2010, 07:06 PM
      #87
    Trained
    Quote:
    So heres the deal. In 99% of shows if you enter your "collected" horse against any good WP horse, the WP horse will win. (not jumping or racing, just a standard horse show) WP horses are like the kings of the show industry.
    In your country, maybe.

    In mine? No way, jose.

    This is what a winning show horse looks like in MY country. Most are nowhere near collection but are closer to a dressage horses movement than a WP horse. A WP horse in a hack class would not even get a look in.



    In my country, a WP horse is only good for a WP class. I have actually NEVER seen a WP horse and I show on my local circuit regularly.
         
        06-26-2010, 07:10 PM
      #88
    Trained
    Quote:
    well ya, western pleasure horses are desireable.
    No - you need to correct yourself here. Western Pleasure horses are NOT desirable by any Judge who is NOT a WP Judge - guarantee you. A WP horse survives only in the WP world.

    I've done MANY Flat Shows in my younger days and NEVER would a WP horse win up against anything aside from WP classes.

    Quote:
    Don't forget it was the judges that kept pinning the "peanut rollers" and the 4 beaters. The judges will influence what trainers will do simply because competitors want to win so they will go to trainers that will train horses that will win under what judges want.
    Exactly and well said.
         
        06-26-2010, 07:11 PM
      #89
    Showing
    I get that they go for a different look and nobody could ever really expect them to collect like a dressage horse does. Western riders look for a nice level horse that travels on a constant loose rein. I get that too, that's what I like too. But the real test of whether or not a horse is actually using their hind end comes when you ask them to sit down and stop from a lope (not a gradual drop that takes a few strides, I mean like a stop right here and don't take another step). Do they bury all 4 feet and pop you out of the saddle or do they sit down and make a nice smooth stop?
         
        06-26-2010, 07:12 PM
      #90
    Green Broke
    Even here in America, I wouldn't see WP horses in any other class winning. Even hunters want more impulsion than that.

    And I agree sypder. It's like the new "LDR" rules in the fei and how judges will score horses behind the vertical before they will pin a horse infront of the vertical
    Posted via Mobile Device
         

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