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Back in the good old days.

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  • The rigid back littauer
  • Horse look tucked up when ridden

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    03-18-2012, 02:40 AM
  #21
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by nrhareiner    
It would depend on the discipline. A roper is not going to ride like a reiner who is not going to ride like a WP rider who is not going to ride like a cutter who is not going ride like they are out on a trail ride and so on.
So they are all going to have a different seat position? I guess I never really thought of it that way. I mean, I know a roper might stand up more in the stirrups and a cutter might be sitting back on his bottom more.......I guess. I suppose I always thought most western riders had the same basic "home" seat position when sitting on the horse or at a walk and then they shifted their weight if they were in action- like a roper for instance.

I would guess a reiner would be in sort of a "normal" position since he or she is neither roping or cutting. I would think reining would be a good example of western riding, at least from what I know about it. I don't know about WP. I really dislike how the horses move and the riders look pretty rigid as well, so I wouldn't really use it as an example of western riding. It is more of a beauty contest on horseback. I would never use that as an example of how an actual horse and rider are supposed to look out in the real world.

So do you guys think in general most western riders have a similar "home" position or not?
     
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    03-18-2012, 02:55 AM
  #22
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsms    
Hmmmm:



Edwin Sanders, cousin to the photographer Erwin E. Smith, on the Three Circles Ranch in Texas. Three Circles Ranch, Texas., 1906



Who am I to argue? Besides, the fellow in the second photo might shoot me...
Cool!

I do think people tend to ride with shorter stirrups (in general) nowadays. And having your feet out in front of you is frowned upon. I have tried riding more with my legs under me as English riding books suggest is correct and I always end up back in my regular, comfy position. I don't know how much of that is me, and how much is my saddle(s). Maybe riding position is as much a result of the saddle as anything else.

Different saddles definitely sit you differently. I like a saddle that lets me balance in a particular way on my seat bones (not a saddle that forces me back on my tail bone or against the cantle). Some saddles try to force you against the cantle and I dislike that.

I don't think we as modern riders are quite as forward with our legs as the old cowboys. Even as I look at my own picture, my leg is at about a 90 degree angle to the ground (the chinks make it look more forward). And in the photo of you, BSMS, your leg is at about a 90 degree angle as well.

Some of the guys in the old photos are much more forward than that.

Now the drawing of the Calvary guy looks like the way I like to sit. And General Robert E. Lee looks pretty good, but are his toes pointed straight downward?
     
    03-18-2012, 02:59 AM
  #23
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsms    





I personally think this looks like an ideal body position for almost any rider other than someone racing, jumping, etc. But for trails, western, dressage, what-have-you, this is what I would consider "home" position. What do you guys think?
     
    03-18-2012, 06:56 AM
  #24
Guest
BSMS, lovely photos

Re Stuart era cavalry - I always think drawings of this type are inaccurate for several obvious reasons and some less obvious. The body of the horse is massive and represents more a driving horse - perhaps a Suffolk Punch, than a lighter cavalry horse.
The rider is wearing a ‘rough’ as a collar which is more appropriate for the earlier Tudor era.
The human somehow is out of proportion with the horse.

Re Old Guard French Cavalry Corporal - that could almost be a modern day painting. The toe is in a position which would be applauded by a modern dressage rider, except it does not run parallel with the side of the horse. There’s no weight in the rider’s feet - the weight is all in the seat. The man sits bolt upright as if on parade - which well he may have been. He’s holding a regimental Eagle.
My guess is that this drawing was to illustrate the uniform rather than the rider’s position.
Perhaps the saddle and the girth are set too far back.
A lovely drawing, never the less.

General Lee certainly sits bolt upright - but again he is posing with his toes slightly down - perhaps to hold the horse still. My guess is he sitting on a military saddle, which would have been English - perhaps even made in England since the Brits were trading with The South in return for cotton.. The horse looks ‘tucked up’.

Your Sheriff is also posing. I suspect he is ‘holding’ the horse still for the photo by pushing down on his stirrups. He didn’t want to spoil the line of his position or his hands which are resting on the top of the horn.

Your Grandad
Lovely, lovely, lovely and the story line too. Talk about giving the horse the credit of intelligence.
PS I must say you have changed

& The Boyo himself. BSMS, you could easily be sitting on an English saddle in that seating position - except you are allowing the horse more rein than we would but there again it has not been fitted with a bit. Again you are posing for the camera.
The horse looks young to me, it is still a touch croup high. Did it grow more? What age was it in this photo? We Brits would probably have waited to back it at three, earliest.

Bsms, You’ve got a few heirloom photos there for future generations. Sadly there are no generations of young horse riders following me on but at least nowadays the photos can be stored ‘in the cloud’.

Barry G
     
    03-18-2012, 07:13 AM
  #25
Guest
Pictures for posterity

Well, I suppose I'll have to chip in with the photos - forget riding style we are now talking history.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg BARRY & GRAHAM SDW START.jpg (40.3 KB, 123 views)
File Type: jpg BG & Silver 1978.jpg (38.2 KB, 120 views)
File Type: jpg 027.jpg (99.0 KB, 118 views)
File Type: jpg 052.jpg (78.0 KB, 122 views)
File Type: jpg BG & DiDi arena-1.jpg (68.7 KB, 119 views)
     
    03-18-2012, 07:18 AM
  #26
Guest
Guys, you've lost the titles - that's my laptop's mistake

But they are all photos of some special occasion of horses we have owned over almost 40 years. The horses rest in my mind as they were and will always be.
But look at me, who would have dreamed that a sprightly young man, such as myself would have grown into suc a decrepid old man?
     
    03-18-2012, 10:05 AM
  #27
Guest
THR - The Old/New Guard Hussar - yes I agree the seat is drawn in a modern style - except the toes are pointing outwards.

But the draw back to the trooper was that the seat was not good for cross country work when some jumping would be called for to get over logs, ditches and hedges. Then the legs are kept too long and the huge benefit which the stirrup irons and the flexation of the knee give was lost to the rider.
The seat drawn is a parade seat.

Most of Napoleon's cavalry were Polish and for that reason they would have ridden 'forwards'. Littauer refers to the Poles as being 'natural' horsemen akin to the Russian Cossacks who were their arch rivals. The Cossacks still ride 'forwards' as per Littauer, Capt Caprilli and et al.

In that early nineteenth century era, preparation for war was dressing up in a fine & fancy uniform and parading in public squares. An English Duke or Earl, would 'create' his own regiment and equip them with saddlery, horses and uniforms from his own pocket - all for his personal agrandisment.

This era of attire was when the Duke of Wellington won against the French, first in Spain and later at Waterloo, where Napoleon lost and was finally exiled to St Helena.

In Saumur at the St Cyr Academy, that is the seat the Cadre Noir would nowadays adopt to perform 'military' dressage - but it is all flat work on sandy soil in an enclosed arena for the benefit of the tourists.
So the 'dressage' seat is utilised. The French don't do the 'work above ground' as does the Spanish Riding School in (Austrian) Vienna on a Slovenian horse ie the Lippiza (a breed formed on the Spanish Andalucian horse).
     
    03-18-2012, 01:21 PM
  #28
Guest
I've read back to myself the comments I have made. I can put my thinking more simply:

The cowboy rides to work cattle.
The dressage rider works to display his/her prowess in an arena.
The forward rider rides to travel cross country.
The jumper rides to jump - whatever.
The racer rides to win
The polo player rides to play ball
Each category uses a specially devised saddle.

Each rider utilises a different riding technique but the limit is always that the human has only two legs and the horse four.

All seven ways of riding must be judged by their fitness for purpose.
     
    03-18-2012, 02:15 PM
  #29
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by trailhorserider    
So they are all going to have a different seat position? I guess I never really thought of it that way. I mean, I know a roper might stand up more in the stirrups and a cutter might be sitting back on his bottom more.......I guess. I suppose I always thought most western riders had the same basic "home" seat position when sitting on the horse or at a walk and then they shifted their weight if they were in action- like a roper for instance.

I would guess a reiner would be in sort of a "normal" position since he or she is neither roping or cutting. I would think reining would be a good example of western riding, at least from what I know about it. I don't know about WP. I really dislike how the horses move and the riders look pretty rigid as well, so I wouldn't really use it as an example of western riding. It is more of a beauty contest on horseback. I would never use that as an example of how an actual horse and rider are supposed to look out in the real world.

So do you guys think in general most western riders have a similar "home" position or not?
All these differnet disciplines have their own staddles. Reason being that they each have their own position that the saddle will sit you in. A WP saddle will sit you upright more with your legs back a bit to help you sit correctly for WP. A reiner have the stirups more foward and again sit you in a position that makes it easier to cue the horse properly. You would be very hard pressed to exchange these 2 saddles and be able to ride correctly. They just put you in a different position which is needed for each event.
     
    03-18-2012, 03:05 PM
  #30
Started
I naturally ride forward. Even western, I ride in a "forward seat" 90% of the time. I've tried to not do that, but no matter what, it's my comfy position. When I'm riding English, my "forward seat" is a bit unstable right now, but it's getting better.
Also, I like my stirrups shorter than what many people would call "normal".
I was taught to carry my weight on my feet. I took that literally, and now it's habit that I ride with most of my weight balanced on my feet.

I've been riding in a roping saddle most of my life too, that that makes a huge difference. They push you up and forward, making you stand up. I just got a barrel racing saddle, and it doesn't do that.

I pretty much have an english position in a western saddle.
     

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