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How do you...

3K views 19 replies 8 participants last post by  Jane Honda 
#1 ·
Train a horse to move so unnaturally?

Yes, yes - I'm referring to western pleasure.

It just seems so labor intensive and stressful on the horse.
 
#3 ·
Not all are bred to do western pleasure that way.
My horse naturally holds her head a little high.
It really isn't that hard to teach a horse to flex on the bit, and that is all I had to do to teach my horse to set her head where it needs to be, not too low, not too high.

Some horses, like mine for instance, naturally move pretty slow. It's all a matter of conditioning. The better shape your horse is in, the easier it is for them to carry themselves slower...Not because they're being forced to go slow.

It's really not that hard and horses don't really get stressed out too much, henceforth you see pleasure horses calmer than any others.
 
#4 ·
Many WP horses now are bred to hold their poll even with the withers or close to it. They also naturally will be more inclined to move with that western pleasure gait.

Personally, I hate four beating, peanut-rollers, etc. But there are many WP horses out there that move nicely and are trained with proper methods.
 
#5 ·
I was referring more to the ultra-slow four beat gait, not the way they hold their heads. There must be training involved and I have no idea how one would go about it. There is no way that it's from breeding alone. I've been around cutting horses with impeccable blood lines - a Mecom filly, for one - and even they require immense amounts of training. Genetic memory can account for certain instincts and nothing more. Nothing as complex as peanut rolling.

Your thoughts?
 
#7 ·
Well 90 days of training still means that, while the horse was bred for its craft and got that good "cow sense", some part of it had to be taught - like how to work off leg cues, etc.

But the genetic memory of a cutting horse includes that "cow sense" - a western pleasure horse can be bred to carry its head low or move slowly, but you can't breed a 4-beat lope (even though you shouldn't be a seeing a 4-beat lope in any western pleasure arena, it's something we see a lot of) into a horse. That's something you have to teach.

I think Jared was asking how do you start training a horse to lope that slowly, or add a 4th beat to the lope? And I think it was mostly asked out of curiosity, as neither of us have ever been around WP horses, or been part of that particular training experience.
 
#8 · (Edited)
A cutting horse's cow-sense isnt a really good metaphor for western pleasure horses. WP horses are bred for their conformation.

As far as the slowness of the gaits...
I prefer a horse to step out and into their lopes more than what the stereotypical pleasure horses do. So I can't tell you how that 1 or 2 horses at the show were taught to move so slowly. I would assume its the same training just pushed too far. Abused, like the spur stop. Simply put...what I was taught was to add inside leg up at the girth and add outside leg back more. This would cause the horse to lift its shoulder, move it's hip in, and collect. (thus slowing down) The over canted, 4 beat lopes were a result of riders asking for too much slow.The horses would 4 beat as it was easier for them and gave them the speed that they wanted. Luckily that's being taken seriously now.

The last Pleasure show I went to the horse's were moving out so much more. It looked lovely and natural for the horses. Effortless. That's the direction its going in now. Not back to the peanut rolling ages. So why continue to bring it up? I highly doubt your interested in the training methods in order to use them yourself. Seems more as though you are trying to start something. Perhaps another fued between the diciplines?
If so, there are plenty other threads to look at.

If that's not the case...why not just go to a aqha show yourself? Ask the trainers in the warm up pen. They can show you, explain to you, and prove that it is quality training going into these horses.

ETA-that's how i learned about higher levels of pleasure btw. Just went to a show and saw it for myself. Its actually really interesting. I always just watch the warm up pens. WP horses have so much training its incredible.
 
#10 ·
Sorry for the Double Post.

But.

Neither of us were trying to start anything - the fact is, we both (Jared and I) just got back from an APHA western pleasure show (among other things), and it was not something we'd been exposed to in much detail before. I have no intention of creating any sort of feud between disciplines - I think all disciplines in the equestrian world are an art of their own. We were curious. My only experience in training horses is the trail riding world. I break horses to be general riding horses for the trail and for fun. I've never competed in anything really. We've got cutting horses, but they've all been professionally bred and trained for the sport. I'm just adjusting them to life outside the arena. Our questions stemmed from curiosity and interest. WP, or at least what I've seen of it, has a very unnatural look and feel to it - though, like I said, we haven't been exposed to it in great detail.

Now, if you read Jared's original question, and then my clarification of it, the question was HOW do you go about teaching a horse to move that way? To quote you: "WP horses have so much training its incredible." - so how is it done? Is it something you start at the ground work stage, or is it something that happens after the rider in the saddle?

"...prove that it is quality training going into these horses."
- neither of us ever suggested that these horses were not trained in the most quality manner. We were, rather, observing that it must take an immense amount of training to get these horses to move in such a manner.

Our question was - how?
 
#11 ·
I don't understand why this is such a touchy subject. My comment was not meant to provoke or offend anyone. However, I am an experienced western trail rider and cannot imagine asking a horse to respond to any command in such a manner. That is simply because I do not understand the art! Not because I do not appreciate it. I did not join this form to upset anyone; only to lean and offer my knowledge and limited expertise where requested.

Hope this clears up any misunderstandings.
 
#14 · (Edited)
BuckOff suggested that Jared and/or I were attempting to "start something" - I think that's what he's referring to. There was also a thread recently closed on the subject of peanut rollers, and I think Jared wanted to emphasize that he had no intentions of starting that over again.

ETA: Saw BuckOff's advice - and it's good advice, sure - but we thought maybe someone here could just give us an idea. She's right in saying that we don't want to use the methods ourselves - we don't train WP horses. We just wanted to know a little bit about it, because we found it interesting and different. That's all. I have no need to ask a trainer in a warm-up arena before a show, since I won't be using the methods myself. Just thought someone here could tell us how it gets started. There are tons of threads on natural horsemandship, and how it's done, and a ton of other things - we just thought we'd ask. We were curious.

Also, BuckOff gave a good explanation of how the rider asks the horse for the slow gaits you see in the WP arena, and for that I'm appreciative. Jared's question was just more about the training of the horse than the riding. Is the slow gait something the horse should be able to do before the rider is introduced? Or is it something you ask for only once they're under saddle? Just trying to understand, that's all.
 
#15 ·
I'm not into WP myself have freinds and family that are but I'm not familer enough with training them to say. I'm into cutting and reining which is why I mentioned it doesn't always take an immense amount of training for cutting in fact before I stuck a huge amount of training into a cutter I'd try a different horse and use the first one at something else. I see horses advertised all the time that say " has had two years of cutting training " if he ain't got it long before that he ain't gonna get it.
 
#16 ·
Y'all I didnt mean to offend you in suggesting that you were just tring to start something. Just covering all the bases since it seems like picking on the WP horses has been the big thing lately.

I would say a pleasure horse is started the same way as any other show horse. The finishing is just going to be a little different as far as what you expect from them. Spur stops are popular but you certainly don't need it to for a pleasure horse. You train just for a good, broke, and sensitive horse that doesnt need a lot of handling through the cues.
And as far as cues go...everything is based off of moving off the leg. From there you gain shoulder, hip, and ribcage control.

Here's an example... This was a filly I started in pleasure. As for her speed all I did was teach her that when I lay my calf on her with some rein, she's to collect. (gradually using less and less rein) Unfortunately she started to get lazy with it and you'll see her cadence waver here and there. (meaning she needs to be pushed up into her jog)
You can see some shoulder stuff in here too. Just like I said before...moving off the leg exercises and evolving from there.
Here head carriage was her own doing. I just made sure she was soft in the face and she just settled into a frame that was comfortable for her.


That's pretty much all I have right now.
I suggested going to see that show because its an enlightening experience. I often go to shows to just watch and learn...even with no intention of competing in that dicipline. Its just interesting.
 
#17 ·
Thanks. We like going to shows just to go. We love watching all the different disciplines. This question was actually spurred by our attendance at a WP show in Houston on Thursday. I've always known of it, and I'd seen a bit here and there, but I'd never sat down and watched a WP show. It was a very interesting experience. We went to watch the Paint Halter/Showmanship, and ended up catching the WP at the end. Sorry if we offended anyone - the question was only asked out of curiosity, nothing more.

BuckOff, thanks for answering our question! I guess the movements are so foreign to me that they look unnatural. I work in the recreational aspect of horses - I can train a horse to do a lot of things with much ease, but WP definitely isn't one of them, lol.

Anyway, I'd love to learn more about it. Thanks for the video.
 
#19 ·
To get the horse to canter at such a low pace you have to get them used to the gait. Horses naturally canter fast because they're not entirely confy with that gait. They are also naturally lazy, and think if they have to canter, they might as well put in the least amount of effort, therefore, it's slow.
 
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