It's this kind of stuff that I just don't understand... - Page 10

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It's this kind of stuff that I just don't understand...

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    04-10-2012, 04:16 PM
NRHA explained it really well in a previous post. It is all in the way they have to spin without traveling in the rear. THis horse actually moves its hind around (travels) as opposed to staying in one spot and using one foot to pivot of sorts. If the horse has enough weight behind it's hind stays put the way it should, and the shoulders are freed up to cross over and perform the maneuver. Like I said-NRHA explained it well-much better than I could ever hope to with my limited reining experience.....
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    04-10-2012, 04:28 PM
There is also so much that cannot be seen in the video. If the horse was doing an action that we, as observers, thought looked good but still didn't give the appropriate response that the rider was feeling for, then the horse is still not doing the proper action.

How many of us have ever had someone say to us "Wow, you and your horse looked amazing doing <insert particular move here>" and you just say "thanks" but all the while you are thinking about how the move didn't feel very good because the horse wasn't as supple as you wanted or they felt a bit bracey here or there or they were sluggish to your cues or they were really falling on the forehand or dropping a shoulder into the turn.

I think I have to agree with NRHAreiner and Franknbeans here. While the rider may not have been using the method properly or in an ideal progression, it was a very long way from abuse. In spite of what all those NH gurus out there would have people believe, you can't always just be soft and kind and gentle and nicey-nice to a horse and get the results you desire. Sometimes they need a bump with the bit or a spur to remind them "Hey, you know what you're supposed to be doing, now wake up and do it right". How hard that bump ends up being depends on how many of the previous steps in the progression the horse has just ignored.
    04-10-2012, 04:37 PM
Mildot, congratulations you just cut and paste words in a book. Every organization has written rules. Show me an organization that doesn't occasionally look the other way for certain members, or certain practices and you'll have a valid argument. Those written rules that you quoted are subject to interpretation. And the officials in those organizations that you quoted are the ones that interpret those. So unless there is only 1 person worldwide making those interpretations, I still don't see your point.

I'm guessing that by basing your argument strictly on written word, you haven't been exposed to very many situations or events where there is more than 1 definition of how something may be achieved.
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    04-10-2012, 04:58 PM
Ok let me touch on a few things here.

Originally Posted by Hoofprints in the Sand    
I understand what everyone is saying about escalating the aids. If I'm navigating the cross country course and my horse starts to suck back on the approach to a jump, I'm going to give her a little leg, then a little more, and she STILL wants to keep it up and is about to refuse, a tap behind my leg with the crop to reinforce it.

What I WOULD NOT do, however, is continue smacking her with the crop once she's over the jump, over and over and over...which is kind of a metaphor for what I am seeing this guy doing. His horse gives, he jerks some, jerks some more, and on and on. Maybe I'm missing something slight that the horse still isn't giving him that he's looking for, but just an observation, made by a non-reiner here.

The differance here is that your maneuver is over. You escalated and the horse responded. Now what would you do if at the next jump he does the same thing? Would you not smake him again and then at the next jump does it again??? What would you do?? Same thing going on here.

If someone would like to enlighten me as to why that is or isn't true, please feel free though, I am trying to grasp why, in some people's opinions, this would be an acceptable way to use the escalation process - to continue on even after you got the response you were looking for.

It is real simple The rider is not getting the responce he is looking for so he keeps correcting the horse. Again this is why I would like to see more then 70 sec. Did he start out this harsh or build to it?
franknbeans likes this.
    04-10-2012, 05:03 PM
Originally Posted by Corporal    
ME, either.
Smacking your horse in the mouth at a horse show is akin to whipping your dog to "heel" right before you enter the dog-show ring. It shows a lack of preparation as WELL as a lack of understanding that pain anywhere doesn't result in greater compliance. I'll bet that this horse has had his tail numbed, too, so he cannot register a complaint that the judge will catch.
I guess I'm a better DOG trainer than a horse trainer bc my 5yo Husky/GSxBC mix now voluntarily heels on the way back from the barn every night. I didn't beat her, either. She does it bc she wants to. I thought THAT was why we show (off) our animals. =/ **pffftt**

First compairing training a dog to a horse is not even close. A dog is not going to get you hurt if they mess up. Yes I have trained dogs to AKC titles quite a bit. Last dog I finished had 3 AKC titles by the time she was a year old.

Next this horse was not doing what was needed so the guy kept at it until he got a bit better. Once he got some of the response he wanted he quit. You can have a horse or dog who works well at home yet take them off your property and you WILL get a different responce. This is why when I train be it a dog or horse I haul them all over. What then do in one place does not mean they will do it in anouther.
franknbeans likes this.
    04-10-2012, 05:09 PM
Originally Posted by mildot    
Let me show you how easy it is to prove how wrong you are:

The fact that some get away with it does not mean the practices are condoned or legal.

Your point? Go find yourself a reiner mag and see how many are on the suspended list. Quite a few at times. Some are some of the biggest names in NRHA over the years. One guy is on the suspended list b/c of his dog.

I will say this again. If this was such a problem for the person who posted in on UTube then why did it take them 2 months to post? Why was it not taken the the show office right then? Why was it not sent into the NRHA. If this was so harsh then the horse would have been marked and the horse/rider would have been DQed.

Since no one seems to want to address this and from what I can see from the reiner list this guy is not on it. I would have to go back and check to see if he DQed or not but I will gaurentee that if he marked this horse either here in the warm up pen or in the class he WILL have been DQed.
PaintedShanty and xxdanioo like this.
    04-10-2012, 05:13 PM
I have a terrible temptation to post one of the videos by the anti-bit people, showing show jumpers and dressage riders getting in their horses mouth...but is it really needed? Does anyone really believe that rough hands are only found in western riders?

I'm not big on using bits to punish a horse, but plenty of folks would complain about ANY punishment. But if the horse knows what to do and how to do it, and just isn't doing it, then some form of punishment is appropriate. I promise you that my lead mare is MUCH stricter and MUCH harsher in handing out punishment than I am...or that rider was!
    04-10-2012, 05:14 PM
Originally Posted by Hoofprints in the Sand    
Thanks for clarifying, that is what I was asking exactly: What was he trying to achieve? If it was headset, he was taking it too far. But I guess if this is how you rock a horse onto its haunches in this disclipline, I did not see the horse rocking back, so I now understand why he kept at it. I certainly would never be that harsh, but we all know there are varying degrees of hands in all disciplines and it's already been pointed out that this guy, while not being abusive, is a bit too heavy handed. I guess I'm too used to dressage where rocking back on the haunches comes from forward movement and from back to front, rather than from the hands/bit.

Thank you for clarifying for me in an adult manner and not jumping down my throat, franknbeans, I appreciate that
As I pointed out earlier is it not just about rocking the horse back over the hocks but lifting and loosening the shoulder lifting the rib cage and so on. What he is doing is just ONE part of one way to get that results. Again this is a relatively new rider to reining. I can not say how long he has even been riding but think back to when you first started showing. Not just riding but showing and trying to get a response from your horse and only haveing 1/2 the tools needed. This looks like where this guy is. It is always easier to get the job done when you have the correct tool for the job and know how to use that tool.
    04-10-2012, 05:17 PM
I was finally able to watch more than 30 sec of the video. I counted 2 or 3 times when the horses mouth was opening from the see-sawing of the reins. The other times I saw the guy see-saw a few times & drop the reins. The horse at no time showed fear or undue distress. He showed some confusion as to exactly what he was being asked, but no fear. He wasn't tensing up after each spin when the rider would get heavy handed. And at the end of the vid, that horse was quiet & relaxed.... never seen THAT body language with an abused horse. And I've worked with my fair share of them, unfortunately.

I wonder what ppl would say if they saw the video of a certain well liked clinician yanking on a lead rope until the whites of the horses eyes were showing? Would that be considered abuse?
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texasgal likes this.
    04-10-2012, 06:12 PM
Originally Posted by busysmurf    
I wonder what ppl would say if they saw the video of a certain well liked clinician yanking on a lead rope until the whites of the horses eyes were showing? Would that be considered abuse?
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You're not talking about Linda Parelli are you? Maybe not to that extent but there is a video of her yanking a horse around and smacking his jaw repeatedly with the lead shank.

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