It's this kind of stuff that I just don't understand... - Page 14
 
 

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It's this kind of stuff that I just don't understand...

This is a discussion on It's this kind of stuff that I just don't understand... within the Western Riding forums, part of the Riding Horses category

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        04-11-2012, 06:42 PM
      #131
    Trained
    Mildot, I'm sure if I felt like a debate I could develop a policy to amend a law or blah-de-blah, but I'm really not into arguing with you anymore. Freedom of speech stifled is not what I want. In fact, I used freedom of speech right there by stating my opinions on these "abuse" videos. I was unaware everything I said on an open forum had to have constitutional validity...Perhaps next time I'll take more than thirty seconds to type it out.

    Orrr actually I probably won't. But okay.
    jumanji321 likes this.
         
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        04-11-2012, 06:53 PM
      #132
    Trained
    I just flagged it you all should do the same. This video should not have ever been posted. It needs to come down.
    Easter and xxdanioo like this.
         
        04-11-2012, 07:28 PM
      #133
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by nrhareiner    
    I just flagged it you all should do the same. This video should not have ever been posted. It needs to come down.
    Unbelievable. Just unbelievable.

    So those who disagree with you and consider such treatment inhumane don't get to have their say? You just want it swept it up under the carpet?

    What are you all going to do if the owner of a video decides to e-mail around? What are you all going to do if this video is hosted on a private website? Hack it? DoS attack?

    Same as the dressage rollkur/low-deep-round/hyperflexion crowd.
         
        04-11-2012, 07:32 PM
      #134
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mildot    
    Uh, no. It doesn't violate ANY of his rights.

    It might be a violation of Youtube policy, which is FAR, FAR from a violation of law or civil rights.

    Most people think they have far more rights than they actually do. And when you do something in public, your image is not yours. You have ZERO expectation of privacy in a public place and there is plenty of legal precedent to back that up.

    You can be photographed in public all day long. You can be video recorded in public all day long. And if the recording is not done in a surrepetitious manner, you can be audio recorded as well in virtually all states.


    Actually it does. Yes anyone can video tape you but there is a limit as to what they can do with it. Some uses need a release this could be one of those things as he was not in a public place but at the show grounds paid for my the NRHA Affiliate in which he is a member and has paid for through his dues and entrie fees.

    Then there is the question that they did not just post a video and leave it at that but they accused him of being abussive. This is where they could be held libal. This is not a ciminal act but would be a cival one and I would be that the subject would win in a civil suit as he can be proven that he is not being abussive as there was no damage to the horse. IF he could prove damages to him by this person posting this video around the net he could sue. Would he win? I would think he would have a good chance but like anything like that it would be up to a jury of 9 to decide.
    franknbeans and NdAppy like this.
         
        04-11-2012, 07:38 PM
      #135
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by nrhareiner    
    Some uses need a release this could be one of those things as he was not in a public place but at the show grounds paid for my the NRHA Affiliate in which he is a member and has paid for through his dues and entrie fees.
    Unless there was a clearly stated "no video" policy at that event, this guy is SOL on that. Particularly if the person doing the recording paid his way in as a spectator.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by nrhareiner    
    Then there is the question that they did not just post a video and leave it at that but they accused him of being abussive. This is where they could be held libal. This is not a ciminal act but would be a cival one and I would be that the subject would win in a civil suit as he can be proven that he is not being abussive as there was no damage to the horse. IF he could prove damages to him by this person posting this video around the net he could sue. Would he win? I would think he would have a good chance but like anything like that it would be up to a jury of 9 to decide.
    For libel to stick, there has to be a lie or an untruthful statement. One little thing about animal cruelty, it doesn't require that there be lasting (or even temporary) physical damage to the animal to stick. This guy would be a fool to take this to civil court as a libel action.
         
        04-11-2012, 07:48 PM
      #136
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mildot    
    Unbelievable. Just unbelievable.

    So those who disagree with you and consider such treatment inhumane don't get to have their say? You just want it swept it up under the carpet?

    What are you all going to do if the owner of a video decides to e-mail around? What are you all going to do if this video is hosted on a private website? Hack it? DoS attack?

    Same as the dressage rollkur/low-deep-round/hyperflexion crowd.
    Mildot-this is a far as I could read to catch up. YOU are the one who is unbelievable. THe person who posted this video, unbeknownst to the person IN the video, is accusing the person of what is a crime, (last I knew actual abuse IS illegal, in every state, unless you know better, since you seem to be the all knowing). What they have stated as FACT (i.e. Horse being abused) is IN FACT, THEIR OPINION. THey have posted the video to get a reaction from other do gooders, and have succeeded in getting this mans name out on the internet for all to see.

    If you can, just for a moment, imagine that you are out riding. The horse trips, you lose your balance and catch the horse in the mouth. Then, as you regain your balance, you just happen to kick the horse. Now, some person happens to be videoing you. THey take that snippet-just that few seconds out of what may have been a wonderful ride-and the post it on the internet, stating that you were abusing your horse. I would like to know how happy that would make you when YOUR name is out there for all to see, and any whack job who decides he wants to play vigilante on behalf of the "poor horse" comes after you.

    As far as your point about freedom of speech-that is also a load of crap in this case, since EVERY POST that does not agree with the poster is deleted within minutes. Do you call that freedom of speech and equal rights?

    THis rider has been wronged. Any one of us could be in that video. That is what has to stop. We may all have to agree to disagree as to whether or not what he is doing is what we would do or not, but I would hope we can all agree that to take a video of someone without their knowledge, accuse them of a crime, and post it up on the internet without the kahonas to give their own name is just wrong.
         
        04-11-2012, 07:50 PM
      #137
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mildot    
    Unbelievable. Just unbelievable.

    So those who disagree with you and consider such treatment inhumane don't get to have their say? You just want it swept it up under the carpet?

    No I have stated several times in this thread. That it took this person over a month to post this video. This video SHOULD have been taken to the show office and shown to them and/or sent into NRHA. There are policies in place to handle this. Posting this on a public forum like Utube helps no one. I just serves to insite idiots who know very little to nothing about what is going on. There is no referance to this video just a short clip. I have a BIG problem when people try things on the court of public opinion.

    What are you all going to do if the owner of a video decides to e-mail around? What are you all going to do if this video is hosted on a private website? Hack it? DoS attack?

    Same as the dressage rollkur/low-deep-round/hyperflexion crowd.
    If they wish to Email it round that is not the same as posting on an open forum like Utube or other similar sites.

    If there is any true abbuse there are policise in place to handle it and THAT is where it should be handled. Not this way.
    SorrelHorse and jumanji321 like this.
         
        04-11-2012, 07:56 PM
      #138
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mildot    
    Unless there was a clearly stated "no video" policy at that event, this guy is SOL on that. Particularly if the person doing the recording paid his way in as a spectator.


    Each show is different so I can not say what was or was not posted. I will say that EVERY run at EVERY show is recored by someone who was hired to do so and most of the time out side photographers and videographers are not allowed. You can shoot your own horses but past that is normally not allowed.


    Also as a pro photographer I will tell you that you do need a reliese to use a person image. Why do you think they fuse out people faces in Videos and on new casts?

    For libel to stick, there has to be a lie or an untruthful statement. One little thing about animal cruelty, it doesn't require that there be lasting (or even temporary) physical damage to the animal to stick. This guy would be a fool to take this to civil court as a libel action.
    At the point they say this guy is being abussive that is liable. As they are making a statement that is not true. At the end of the day anyone can sue any one and it comes down to the 9 people sitting there to decide.

    As for being a fool. Not really. That would be up to him. Since he is not a trainer he is not loosing income b/c of this so there would be little gain there. So as to that it might not be worth it. More principle then anything.
         
        04-11-2012, 08:11 PM
      #139
    Trained
    It might be helpful to distinguish between "legal rights" and "natural rights".

    Legally, it would be tough to prove libel. And I don't think you have a legal right to privacy when you do something in public - unless you are a cop in some states, where you can be arrested for videotaping a cop in his official duties.

    But rights can also refer to natural rights. Natural law - common decency and a concern for the rights of the accused - says a man has the right to face his opponents. Posting a video on YouTube calling someone an animal abuser violates that natural right, even if our law doesn't give one legal recourse.

    Freedom of speech works best when people speak responsibly. Making a public, anonymous accusation of animal abuse, with a 70 second video to back it up, is very irresponsible.

    The Arizona law for animal abuse is at this link:

    Format Document

    Excerpt:
    A. A person commits cruelty to animals if the person does any of the following:
    1. Intentionally, knowingly or recklessly subjects any animal under the person's custody or control to cruel neglect or abandonment.
    2. Intentionally, knowingly or recklessly fails to provide medical attention necessary to prevent protracted suffering to any animal under the person's custody or control.
    3. Intentionally, knowingly or recklessly inflicts unnecessary physical injury to any animal.
    4. Recklessly subjects any animal to cruel mistreatment...

    ...2. "Cruel mistreatment" means to torture or otherwise inflict unnecessary serious physical injury upon an animal or to kill an animal in a manner that causes protracted suffering to the animal."
    That has nothing to do with "I think the guy is too heavy handed with the reins", or even, "I don't think people should use bits" or "I don't think people should ride horses".


    When you allow people to define animal abuse based, not on physical harm, but on "what I don't like to see", you open up the door to allowing accusations of abuse for owning a dog, riding a horse, rounding up cattle in the sun, etc.

    Arizona also says:
    "13-2910.05. Exempt activities
    (Caution: 1998 Prop. 105 applies)
    Activity involving the possession, training, exhibition or use of an animal in the otherwise lawful pursuits of hunting, ranching, farming, rodeos, shows and security services shall be exempt from the provisions of sections 13-2910.01, 13-2910.02, 13-2910.03 and 13-2910.04."

    The law would vary from state to state, but I'm not comfortable with the idea that anyone who wants to accuse you of cruelty to animals (Do your horses ever sweat while riding?) should be able to do so on Youtube, and potentially cost you employment etc at a later date.

    This is a case where the law hasn't caught up with the extensive defamation that can occur in hours on the Internet.
         
        04-11-2012, 08:17 PM
      #140
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mildot    
    ...One little thing about animal cruelty, it doesn't require that there be lasting (or even temporary) physical damage to the animal to stick...
    In many states, the legal definition of abuse DOES require more than someone saying, "I don't like how you treat your animals."

    I've met people who think Border Collies should not be allowed to breed, because their primary purpose is to 'harass' sheep. I've met people who think I'm abusive, because I own dogs. And I've met people who think all domestic horses are abused, because they are not being allowed to roam "Free, as free as the wind blows"!
         

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