It's this kind of stuff that I just don't understand... - Page 15 - The Horse Forum

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post #141 of 296 Old 04-11-2012, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by bsms View Post
In many states, the legal definition of abuse DOES require more than someone saying, "I don't like how you treat your animals."
This is true. There does need to be some physical sine.

Let me tell you a bit of a story. About 13 years ago the guy who lived next door to me in the city decided he did not like my dog. So he took out his BB gun and shot him. I found evidence of this and called the cops and animal control. They came out investigated talked to the guy who ADMITED to shooting my dog. Since there was not physical signs of the dog being injured short of taking x rays they would not press charges.

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post #142 of 296 Old 04-11-2012, 10:59 PM
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To further illistrate what bsms said. In May 1999, a rider was disqualified from a WI dressage/combined training event for slapping her horse in the shoulder. The steward immediately removed the rider from the warm up arena stating excessive punishment & abuse.

The following day, a video of the incident was presented to the organizations board. The video clearly showed the horse trying to bite at passing horses. The rider, clearly frustrated, slapped the horse on the shoulder with their hand when the horse tried to bite a passing horse. The horse was slapped ONCE at the time of misbehavior, no other punishment was administered by the rider.

During the review of the incident, the steward vehimently stood behind the call of abuse, stating he felt slapping in any form or situation was abuse. The board came to the conclusion that the rider had acted appropriately. However, the damage was already done, the rider received numerous negative actions against her because people assumed she was abusive towards horses. That was the last time she ever rode competitively. All because 1 person didn't like how she did something.

I'm sorry that I have to be the one to tell you this, but the world IS NOT black & white.
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post #143 of 296 Old 04-12-2012, 02:31 AM
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Originally Posted by COWCHICK77 View Post
To me, I find this scary.

What other idiots are lurking at horse shows to video a snipet of people schooling their horse to post to YouTube and label it "abuse"?
Man makes me even more nervous to go to my first show with Sky.

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post #144 of 296 Old 04-12-2012, 02:38 AM
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Wow, stupid stupid stupid video. Was the guy a little over the top yes, but way off of being abusive. People need to take a chill pill. Theres bad in EVERY horse event. Hell we might as well turn all our horses free because any thing we do anymore is going to be abusive. Pretty soon people are going to be disqualified for looking at there horse wrong.

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post #145 of 296 Old 04-12-2012, 08:06 AM
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I was lucky to be exposed to excellent horsemen and the one thing they all said was to protect the horse's mouth. When a horse has a sore mouth you will not get the best performance. Ie. Don't jerk the reins. It's amazing how responsive horses can be when the reins are merely tickled or stroked with the little finger. Guys like the one in the video send the message that this is ok or he might see a big decline in business.
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post #146 of 296 Old 04-12-2012, 08:27 AM
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You guys can argue till the cows come home about the legalities of animal abuse, or about the "legality" of posting this jerk's video for all the world to see.

As far as I am concerned, his treatment of his horse is unethical, abusive, and shows deplorable horsemanship. His counduct is punishable by rules in any recognized USEF or FEI (including reining) event.

Anyone who makes any kind of excuse or rationalization about the way that horse was treated is not someone I wish to associate with, much less let anywhere near a horse that is in my care.

Anyone with a lick of common decency and sense can see the difference between what he is doing and an aggressive correction to stop or control dangerous behavior of a horse.

As far as the video, I'm down with it. The roaches scurry when the light gets turned on, in ANY discipline.

If all of that makes me an A-H, so be it. I can still live with myself. It wouldn't be the first time I take an unpopular position.

Last edited by mildot; 04-12-2012 at 08:32 AM.
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post #147 of 296 Old 04-12-2012, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by busysmurf View Post
To further illistrate what bsms said. In May 1999, a rider was disqualified from a WI dressage/combined training event for slapping her horse in the shoulder. The steward immediately removed the rider from the warm up arena stating excessive punishment & abuse.

The following day, a video of the incident was presented to the organizations board. The video clearly showed the horse trying to bite at passing horses. The rider, clearly frustrated, slapped the horse on the shoulder with their hand when the horse tried to bite a passing horse. The horse was slapped ONCE at the time of misbehavior, no other punishment was administered by the rider.

During the review of the incident, the steward vehimently stood behind the call of abuse, stating he felt slapping in any form or situation was abuse. The board came to the conclusion that the rider had acted appropriately. However, the damage was already done, the rider received numerous negative actions against her because people assumed she was abusive towards horses. That was the last time she ever rode competitively. All because 1 person didn't like how she did something.

I'm sorry that I have to be the one to tell you this, but the world IS NOT black & white.
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Wow, that's just a shame

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post #148 of 296 Old 04-12-2012, 08:35 AM
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I thnk someone needs to let this guy know the video is out there and let him "redeem" himself, in all fairness. (I'm sure he may already know it is though) Let him show a video of a "typical" ride/warmup that's longer than a minute and see the steps he took to escalate to this point. Maybe then those of us who don't agree with what we saw on the short video that was posted would begin to see both sides of the fence/the whole picture? If I were him, I'd be livid if this was truly not representative of how I treat my horse, and I'd want the chance to "respond" to the youtube video and show the world the other side of the truth.
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post #149 of 296 Old 04-12-2012, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by mildot View Post
You guys can argue till the cows come home about the legalities of animal abuse, or about the "legality" of posting this jerk's video for all the world to see.

As far as I am concerned, his treatment of his horse is unethical, abusive, and shows deplorable horsemanship. His counduct is punishable by rules in any recognized USEF or FEI (including reining) event.

Anyone who makes any kind of excuse or rationalization about the way that horse was treated is not someone I wish to associate with, much less let anywhere near a horse that is in my care.

Anyone with a lick of common decency and sense can see the difference between what he is doing and an aggressive correction to stop or control dangerous behavior of a horse.

As far as the video, I'm down with it. The roaches scurry when the light gets turned on, in ANY discipline.

If all of that makes me an A-H, so be it. I can still live with myself. It wouldn't be the first time I take an unpopular position.
I can only hope that someone posts a video of you on youtube one day catching you in a off moment. Maybe then you will decide it is not fair to judge based on so little information.

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post #150 of 296 Old 04-12-2012, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by mildot View Post
...As far as I am concerned, his treatment of his horse is unethical, abusive, and shows deplorable horsemanship. His counduct is punishable by rules in any recognized USEF or FEI (including reining) event.

Anyone who makes any kind of excuse or rationalization about the way that horse was treated is not someone I wish to associate with, much less let anywhere near a horse that is in my care...
To put it bluntly, I've never seen a horse trained where the level of "unethical, abusive, and...deplorable horsemanship" hasn't sometimes reached this level.

When I walk into the corral & feed my horses, they wait at their buckets. They don't do that naturally. When I first got them, they would try to push and get the feed from me immediately - and I would use a feed bucket or poop scoop or anything else at hand to MAKE them get out of my way.

When I've walked Mia on a lead, and she started panicking because...well, because...I've either turned her or backed her up with a lot more aggression than this guy was showing. I don't know what my neighbors thought about me, but I can't allow 900 lbs of muscle to take control.

Sometimes you have to go where you don't want to go with a horse so the horse won't want to go there, either.

I believe in natural horsemanship. I watch my lead mare maintain discipline. Then I tone it down about 20-fold. When I started daily training sessions with Mia last Nov, one of the first things the trainer asked me was, "If another horse treated Mia that way, would SHE accept it?"

No one could ever accuse me of getting too harsh with a bit. I didn't use bits for a long time, and I started using them only when I realized that a well handled bit allows the rider to be SOFTER with a horse, not harsher. But I do not subscribe to the Black Stallion School of Training. I can't get Mia to relax and obey by feeding her seaweed & generating some mysterious bond. Sometimes she needs me to be harsh with her, although I've never been as harsh as she is with other horses.

Oddly enough, the other horses run to Mia when they are nervous. Apparently they don't mind her autocratic rule. And when Mia gets nervous, she comes to me. She puts her head next to me and waits for me to make the bad things go away. Odd, given my "unethical, abusive, and...deplorable horsemanship"...

When I see most English riders riding, my gut reaction is, "Let go of your horse's head!" I think a lot of English riding looks 'abusive' - but I'm also smart enough to see that those 'abused' horses do just fine, and even adore their 'abusive' riders. The standard for 'abuse' can't be what YOU think, or what I think. It needs to be what the HORSE thinks.

"People can teach us the rules, but only horses can teach us the art of riding."
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