It's this kind of stuff that I just don't understand... - Page 7

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It's this kind of stuff that I just don't understand...

This is a discussion on It's this kind of stuff that I just don't understand... within the Western Riding forums, part of the Riding Horses category

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    04-09-2012, 01:47 PM
From my perspective, the point is that there are folks in ALL sports who either don't know what they are doing, or who do know. The latter may use techniques that aren't pretty, but that isn't the same as abusive. I'm not a fan of rollkur, but I'm hardly in a position to lecture world champions on how to train horses...

I have a gelding who was abused. He had holes spurred thru his skin on both sides, leaving open wounds about 2-3" across. THAT was abuse. But pulling on a horse's mouth?

This picture was taken on my first ride with Cowboy. He had galloped 10-12 laps without stopping. He hadn't responded to anything I pulled very firm and held it. The moment he stopped, I released. He bolted again, and we repeated. After 4-5 times, he decided to stop with gentle pressure.

But the first stop wasn't pretty. Was there a better way to teach him? Maybe. I'm not the end-all of horse training...but I was there, and my daughter-in-law had just needed to run him into a fence to stop him. And the following day, he stopped properly for her about 90% of the time. Fast forward 4 months, and he is now my wife's favorite horse. And he's the only horse that I regularly ride with an English saddle. But this picture makes me look like a complete jerk. A 60" video wouldn't have covered me with glory, either...

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    04-09-2012, 01:58 PM
Originally Posted by SorrelHorse    
Anebel you know very well I respect good dressage highly, I've ridden it myself, (Not my cup of tea and nothing serious but we did fairly well) but for Christ's sake, you have to admit some of that is out there.

Maybe for you guys where you have good riders and good shows it wouldn't be considered lovely, but you haven't seen my area. My area actually disturbs me. I went to watch a dressage show and actually had to turn around and leave before I saw any of the good riders. Since then I've found a few. I never said the entirety of the dressage discipline is like that, just like not all reining is. It was to make a point, not a stab.

I have seen a dressage show in Oregon, actually.

You're calling dressage amateur idiots worse than reining amateur idiots?? At least we don't give them curb bits!!!

And yes, it was a stab, I'm sorry. I have seen dressage stewards excuse people from the warm up ring for less than what the guy in OP's video was doing. You did insinuate that attendance at any dressage event would make that kind of jerking the face acceptable. Which it is not. Especially not an international event and especially not in Cali/Fla/European circuits. Over here on the NW coast and over into N central we get a lot of the idiot yahoos, but the more FEI attention this part of NA is getting, the better the riding and stewarding is getting. I would not expect that anyone doing that amount of jerking would be tolerated at a dressage show.

I don't say anything about the quality of riders at reining shows (of which I have attended two) and I expect the same from others about my sport. It's common courtesy.
    04-09-2012, 02:05 PM
Originally Posted by mildot    
I see the points I made flew right over your head.
Yup you wear blinders in your world and you think english is better the western. I see. You see what you want and only see the bad in others and how they train not how your trainers train. I see you points.
    04-09-2012, 02:38 PM
Anebel I did not come here to argue about dressage (YET AGAIN) with you. I've already stated my respect of the sport and my respect for you. I'm sorry if you misinterpretted my comment but whatever you are taking offense to I assure you I did not mean it that away. Bsms has been stating my opinion wonderfully.
    04-09-2012, 02:43 PM
Originally Posted by SorrelHorse    
Anebel I did not come here to argue about dressage (YET AGAIN) with you. I've already stated my respect of the sport and my respect for you. I'm sorry if you misinterpretted my comment but whatever you are taking offense to I assure you I did not mean it that away. Bsms has been stating my opinion wonderfully.
Cool so don't mention dressage when someone posts a vid of a bad rider, and I then I won't even have to post.. k? I was not the one that said the word "dressage" first in this thread...

I also happen to agree with bsms on most things, so I don't know why there is an issue.
    04-09-2012, 02:48 PM
You taking offense to the dressage comment is no different than my reaction to the comments on reining. I do not see where the issue lies either. The point I only try to make is the good and bad of both of them.....But okay.
    04-09-2012, 03:11 PM
Super Moderator
[QUOTE=oh vair oh;1444001] I apologize if this turns into a big flame fest. I actually really want to make a documentary when I graduate about the "inside world" of western horse showing, and what exactly is going on.[/QUOTE]

I think that in order to make a documentary you need to know what you are talking about, which means you need to study the discipline, maybe even participate. As for the last bolded statement. I think your documentary should include any and all show/competition related disciplines because you can find ugly anywhere you look. As for the abuse. I'm having a hard time getting the video to load but so far, I haven't seen it. Going back to look now. This statement just irritated me badly so I felt the need to respond.
    04-09-2012, 04:22 PM
Green Broke
Maybe I should video my dad riding his 4 year old so you can all argue about that. I'll even give you before and after details, I bet there will still be an argument.... first, about spurs, next about heavy-handedness, and then about hackamores, and then somehow you'll probably bring team roping and show jumping into it.... and it will just keep going.
And going
and going.
and going.
and going.
    04-09-2012, 04:49 PM
It was stated earlier in the thread that the rider was attempting a method that actually works quite well, just making a huge mess of it. Could someone please explain to me the method as it should be performed and what the goal is? I am COMPLETELY ignorant about reining so have no idea lol.

I don't think the video was outright abuse, as in beating the horse with a 2 x 4 or snubbing its nose to a post for days with no food or water. It IS rough IMO, if I were EVER that heavy handed I'm pretty sure my instructor would have jerked me off the horse and spanked my a**, lol. I was taught to strive for very subtle cues, almost invisible communication with my horse, which since I know nothing about reining could be the ultimate goal here too, and the rider is just absolutely abysmal lol.

I am not going to bash any discipline, hell I ride gaited horses and we ALL know how rough some people are on gaited horses. What I am going to bash is someone that climbed in the saddle and got in over their head when they obviously weren't ready. This is a perfect example of why anyone that wants to compete in a discipline like this NEEDS to have a firm grip on basic equitation and then find a trainer to teach them the proper way to progress in their chosen sport.
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    04-09-2012, 08:13 PM
Ok since this was asked I will try and explane with out putting a novel down here.

First lets talk about what a turn it. It is a forward 360degree turn on the inside rear foot. I do not like to call it a pivot foot as that leads you to think that the foot can not move from that spot like in Basketball. This is not true. The horse can pick it up and put it back down you just do not want that foot to "Travel". The frond end MUST be elevated and the front legs cross over in front of the other.

Now lets brake this down. The horse needs to be back over its hocks. With it shoulders up free and loos. The horse also needs to be able to lift its rib cage and move every inch of its body. Now how do you get this? There are many ways to get a horse doing this. However every single one of them start with a horse who can except contact with the bit and bridle up. Doing so all the way to the chect exagerates every single one of the things I have listed. By rocking his nose back and forth as he is bridled up with help free up the shoulder.

A horse who is light and excepting of the bit and being bridled up will do this with little resitance and with light cue of the reins. However lets face it not every horse is light in the bridle and not everyones hands are soft and quiet. This takes a lot of time practice and feel. This guy needs to keep working on all of this. He is heavy handed asking too much too fast for too long. At the end of the day you should be able to just about brake your horse in 1/2 at all gaits. I know several of mine can and well Te has a very hard time as he has 6 fused vertibre in his pole so he has a very hard time with this and it shows in his turns and stops as he can not flex like this.

At the end of the day when done correctly and light it frees up the shoulder and sits the horse back on the hocks and lifts the rib cage.

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