It's this kind of stuff that I just don't understand... - Page 9
 
 

       The Horse Forum > Riding Horses > Western Riding

It's this kind of stuff that I just don't understand...

This is a discussion on It's this kind of stuff that I just don't understand... within the Western Riding forums, part of the Riding Horses category

    Like Tree375Likes

     
    LinkBack Thread Tools
        04-10-2012, 01:30 PM
      #81
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mildot    
    ...This guy passed the point and kept on running.
    Hard to say based on 70". Maybe he did, or maybe not. It also depends on the horse. Cowboy, like a lot of lesson horses, is pretty hard-mouthed. With time, he is softening, but that is in a normal situation. If he decides to be a pain, then he is very hard mouthed.

    With my other two horses, pinkie pressure is about all it takes on the reins. Even when they get excited, a pinkie of pressure as each shoulder goes forward, and in a few strides they will respond. But when Cowboy gets excited, he switches from wrist pressure to full arm pressure.

    There are a lot of things we don't know from the video, including the horse's personality and background.

    Like most on the thread, I'm not saying I admire the way the guy is handling things. I ride with a snaffle or rope halter, and my goal for all of my horses is to get to where reins are rarely used. For me, normal riding includes slack in the reins, unlike the English approach of contact.

    However, I'm not willing to jump in the guy's chili without knowing a lot more. Nor am I willing to condemn a sport (reining) based on a short video.
         
    Sponsored Links
    Advertisement
     
        04-10-2012, 01:44 PM
      #82
    Trained
    I am a beginning reiner, certainly far from where NRHA is....but, here goes. I have a couple of questions/observations and statements. NRHA-feel free to correct me.....
    First, some of you seem to think that "snaffles" are somehow the magic tool for being gentle. They are JUST as bad in the wrong hands, as is any bit. THe traditional jointed snaffles have a "lovely" nutcracker action when even pulled on gently with both hands. Some of these same folks seem to think that all "curbs" are created equal. There are curbs that are jointed, just so that you can pick up a shoulder of needed. It may not be that this is a traditional solid curb like I think some of you are picturing. We cannot see the part that is in the horses mouth, so we cannot guess. There are also horses who stick their tongues out, regardless of bit, no bit etc.

    AS NRHA has said, we are only seeing a snippet of the entire picture. Inexperienced riders with rough hands happen in every discipline from Dressage (*GASP* I said it!) to jumpers,to trail riding.

    I do see that the rider is trying to lighten the front, but here is my question for NRHA-you made a reference early on to watch the legs......I have, over and over. I see them doing little to nothing. I do not see the outside leg on, inside off like I have been taught with a spin......What were you referring to?

    TO those of you who think this guy is cruel and abusive, please take note of the spurs and the fact that I did not even see them touch this horse. So what he is doing may not be your cup of tea, but he is far from an abusive rider.

    SOme of you may not like reining, or may love watching the trained ones, and just not understand what it takes to achieve that. Occasionally we need to correct our horses, just like ANY discipline. Particularly when they know better.
         
        04-10-2012, 02:17 PM
      #83
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by franknbeans    
    I do see that the rider is trying to lighten the front, but here is my question for NRHA-you made a reference early on to watch the legs......I have, over and over. I see them doing little to nothing. I do not see the outside leg on, inside off like I have been taught with a spin......What were you referring to?

    What I am referring to is not when he is turning the horse but when he is correcting the horse. I would like to see him use his legs a bit more then he is but you can see as he is correcting the horse with his hands he is bumping the horse with his legs. What I would like to see is more leg and less hands.

    What this will do in push the horse up into the bit free up the shoulder lift the ribs and rock the horse back over the hocks. This horse is really strung out in his turns. Look when he turns where his hind legs are. They need to be more under him then behind him and that is what this guy is trying to do. He is not trying to get a head set but he is trying to free hip the shoulder lift the rib cage and rock the horse back so he is turning over his hocks more.
         
        04-10-2012, 02:28 PM
      #84
    Trained
    Agree totally. I thought I was missing something he WAS doing with his legs. Thanks. I have not ever used my legs so much as with reiners.
         
        04-10-2012, 02:51 PM
      #85
    Green Broke
    I understand what everyone is saying about escalating the aids. If I'm navigating the cross country course and my horse starts to suck back on the approach to a jump, I'm going to give her a little leg, then a little more, and she STILL wants to keep it up and is about to refuse, a tap behind my leg with the crop to reinforce it.

    What I WOULD NOT do, however, is continue smacking her with the crop once she's over the jump, over and over and over...which is kind of a metaphor for what I am seeing this guy doing. His horse gives, he jerks some more...gives, jerks some more, and on and on. Maybe I'm missing something slight that the horse still isn't giving him that he's looking for, but just an observation, made by a non-reiner here.

    If someone would like to enlighten me as to why that is or isn't true, please feel free though, I am trying to grasp why, in some people's opinions, this would be an acceptable way to use the escalation process - to continue on even after you got the response you were looking for.
         
        04-10-2012, 03:30 PM
      #86
    Yearling
    Yes, this particular person is heavy handed. Yes, he is a reiner. Yes, it's been shown he is new. But is it abuse? No. To bring in "non-western" organizations & state they would not allow such methods is GROSSLY incorrect. I can give you several trainers that are members of such types of organizations that make the the rider in the video look like he hasn't touched the horses mouth AT ALL! And yet they are well respected in those organizations.

    This technique is not limited to one discipline! It is more often seen in the "non-western" disciplines, it just happens this video is of a reiner. BUT IT HAPPENS WITH EVERY DISCIPLINE.

    For those of you who must judge another rider based off a 70 sec video, post a 70 sec video of you working with your horse. Show us how perfect you are....
    Posted via Mobile Device
         
        04-10-2012, 03:42 PM
      #87
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by oh vair oh    
    The fact that he is a rookie does not impress me. I can only see that type of correction as a short-cut. And I agree, it is a method that people take that wins the big bucks and the big shows...It's not a technique I'll implement, just because it weighs better on my conscience to do it a different way.
    ME, either.
    Smacking your horse in the mouth at a horse show is akin to whipping your dog to "heel" right before you enter the dog-show ring. It shows a lack of preparation as WELL as a lack of understanding that pain anywhere doesn't result in greater compliance. I'll bet that this horse has had his tail numbed, too, so he cannot register a complaint that the judge will catch.
    I guess I'm a better DOG trainer than a horse trainer bc my 5yo Husky/GSxBC mix now voluntarily heels on the way back from the barn every night. I didn't beat her, either. She does it bc she wants to. I thought THAT was why we show (off) our animals. =/ **pffftt**
         
        04-10-2012, 03:44 PM
      #88
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Hoofprints in the Sand    
    I understand what everyone is saying about escalating the aids. If I'm navigating the cross country course and my horse starts to suck back on the approach to a jump, I'm going to give her a little leg, then a little more, and she STILL wants to keep it up and is about to refuse, a tap behind my leg with the crop to reinforce it.

    What I WOULD NOT do, however, is continue smacking her with the crop once she's over the jump, over and over and over...which is kind of a metaphor for what I am seeing this guy doing. His horse gives, he jerks some more...gives, jerks some more, and on and on. Maybe I'm missing something slight that the horse still isn't giving him that he's looking for, but just an observation, made by a non-reiner here.

    If someone would like to enlighten me as to why that is or isn't true, please feel free though, I am trying to grasp why, in some people's opinions, this would be an acceptable way to use the escalation process - to continue on even after you got the response you were looking for.
    All due respect-this analogy does NOT work. Mainly because the problem is NOT fixed. It is not the same as continuing to smack a horse after a fence. Just because you see this horse give its head means nothing. That was not what the rider wanted to achieve. THerefore, the horse still wasn't "getting it" by rocking back off the forehand, freeing the shoulder and performing the maneuver correctly. He corrects the horse, tries the spin, still has not gotten what he needs, corrects again....still does NOT have it. I agree this may not be the best way to get where he is trying to go, all I am pointing out is that in your analogy the horse would have performed correctly, thus ending the need for continued correction. THis one did not.

    Honestly-being new to reining and from a different background-I had times when I thought maybe it was a bit rough. Then I saw the difference in my own horse-the level of performance and respect, and I sort of see it like someone going into the military, or something I am more familiar with, BUDs training for SEALs. That is totally cruel-much more that my horse, who has a warm cozy stall and is asked to work an hour a day. But look what they turn out! WHere else would you be nearly drown then almost run to death...and asked to do it again...and again. The means do justify the end, IMO, as long as it is a reasonable trainer, which most are. Sure there are bad apples, just like any discipline. But they are, for the most part weeded out by the association.
         
        04-10-2012, 03:47 PM
      #89
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by busysmurf    
    To bring in "non-western" organizations & state they would not allow such methods is GROSSLY incorrect.
    Let me show you how easy it is to prove how wrong you are:

    Quote:
    FEI GENERAL REGULATIONS
    23rd edition, 1 January 2009, updated 1 January 2010
    Article 142 – Abuse of Horses
    1. No person may abuse a Horse during an Event or at any other time. “Abuse” means an action or omission which causes or is likely to cause pain or unnecessary discomfort to a Horse, including without limitation any of the following:
    - To whip or beat a Horse excessively;
    - To subject a Horse to any kind of electric shock device;
    - To use spurs excessively or persistently;
    - To jab the Horse in the mouth with the bit or any other device;
    - To compete using an exhausted, lame or injured Horse;
    - To “rap” a Horse.
    - To abnormally sensitise or desensitise any part of a Horse;
    - To leave a Horse without adequate food, drink or exercise;
    - To use any device or equipment which cause excessive pain to the Horse upon knocking down an obstacle.

    Quote:

    SUBCHAPTER 8-F
    WELFARE OF THE HORSE.

    GR839 Cruelty to and Abuse of a Horse .
    1. Cruelty to or the abuse of a horse by any person at a Licensed Competition is forbidden, constitutes a violation under Chapter 7, and renders the offender subject to penalty. The Show Committee must bar violators from further participation for the remainder of the competition. It is the duty of the competition officials and any properly constituted humane organization to report to the Federation any person who indulges in this practice for such further action as may be deemed appropriate.
    2. The Federation or the Judge, Steward, or TD may appoint a veterinarian to inspect any animal in competition. Refusal to submit an animal for examination by an authorized veterinarian after due notification shall constitute a violation.
    3. Show Committees are encouraged to contact the American Humane Association, 63 Inverness Dr., E. Englewood, CO 80112, which will provide experienced humane inspectors to work with them in eliminating cruel practices.
    4. The following acts are included under the words Cruelty and Abuse but are not limited thereto:
    A. Excessive use of a whip on any horse in a stall, runway, schooling area, competition ring or elsewhere on the competition grounds, before or during a competition, by any person. Except in emergency situations, any striking of the horse’s head (on the poll and forward of the poll) with the whip shall be deemed excessive.
    B. Rapping the legs of a horse with the butt end of a riding crop or other implement.
    C. Use of any substance to induce temporary heat.
    D. Manual poling with any object other than a bamboo pole.
    E. Use of a wire or chain in conjunction with any schooling jump.
    F. Use of electric device in schooling or showing.
    G. Use of shackles, hock hobbles and similar devices (not to be construed as rubber or elastic exercising devices).
    H. Showing a horse with raw or bleeding sores around the coronets, pasterns or legs.
    I. Use of any explosive (e.g., fire crackers, torpedoes, fire extinguishers except in case of fire, etc.) or laser beam devices anywhere on the competition grounds, except in an exhibition or if required in class specifications.
    J. Withholding of feed and water for prolonged periods.
    K. Letting blood from a horse for other than diagnostic purposes.
    L. Inhumane treatment of a horse in a stall, runway, schooling area, competition ring or elsewhere on the competition grounds, by any person.
    M. Use of any object that prevents the horse’s ability to close his mouth. (Exception: use of
    an oral speculum by a veterinarian or equine dentist to provide legitimate dental/oral medical

    Care.)
    5. Any action(s) against a horse by a competitor or an exhibitor, which are deemed excessive by a judge, Federation steward, technical delegate or competition veterinarian, in the competition ring or anywhere on the competition grounds may be punished by official warning, elimination, or other sanctions which may be deemed appropriate by the Show Committee. Such action(s) could include, but are not limited to excessive use of the whip, spurs, or bamboo poles. Competitors and exhibitors have the right to contest any action taken pursuant to GR839.5 by filing a protest or grievance pursuant to Chapter 6 of the Rules for hearing and determination by the Hearing Committee.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by busysmurf    
    I can give you several trainers that are members of such types of organizations that make the the rider in the video look like he hasn't touched the horses mouth AT ALL!
    The fact that some get away with it does not mean the practices are condoned or legal.
    pepperduck and Corporal like this.
         
        04-10-2012, 04:10 PM
      #90
    Green Broke
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by franknbeans    
    All due respect-this analogy does NOT work. Mainly because the problem is NOT fixed. It is not the same as continuing to smack a horse after a fence. Just because you see this horse give its head means nothing. That was not what the rider wanted to achieve. THerefore, the horse still wasn't "getting it" by rocking back off the forehand, freeing the shoulder and performing the maneuver correctly. He corrects the horse, tries the spin, still has not gotten what he needs, corrects again....still does NOT have it. I agree this may not be the best way to get where he is trying to go, all I am pointing out is that in your analogy the horse would have performed correctly, thus ending the need for continued correction. THis one did not.
    Thanks for clarifying, that is what I was asking exactly: What was he trying to achieve? If it was headset, he was taking it too far. But I guess if this is how you rock a horse onto its haunches in this disclipline, I did not see the horse rocking back, so I now understand why he kept at it. I certainly would never be that harsh, but we all know there are varying degrees of hands in all disciplines and it's already been pointed out that this guy, while not being abusive, is a bit too heavy handed. I guess I'm too used to dressage where rocking back on the haunches comes from forward movement and from back to front, rather than from the hands/bit.

    Thank you for clarifying for me in an adult manner and not jumping down my throat, franknbeans, I appreciate that
         

    Quick Reply
    Please help keep the Horse Forum enjoyable by reporting rude posts.
    Message:
    Options

    Register Now

    In order to be able to post messages on the The Horse Forum forums, you must first register.

    Already have a Horse Forum account?
    Members are allowed only one account per person at the Horse Forum, so if you've made an account here in the past you'll need to continue using that account. Please do not create a new account or you may lose access to the Horse Forum. If you need help recovering your existing account, please Contact Us. We'll be glad to help!

    New to the Horse Forum?
    Please choose a username you will be satisfied with using for the duration of your membership at the Horse Forum. We do not change members' usernames upon request because that would make it difficult for everyone to keep track of who is who on the forum. For that reason, please do not incorporate your horse's name into your username so that you are not stuck with a username related to a horse you may no longer have some day, or use any other username you may no longer identify with or care for in the future.

    User Name:
    Password
    Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
    Password:
    Confirm Password:
    Email Address
    Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
    Email Address:

    Log-in

    Human Verification

    In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.


    Old Thread Warning
    This thread is more than 90 days old. When a thread is this old, it is often better to start a new thread rather than post to it. However, If you feel you have something of value to add to this particular thread, you can do so by checking the box below before submitting your post.

    Thread Tools

    Similar Threads
    Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
    Had to tell someone who would understand! sierrams1123 Horse Talk 6 12-31-2011 12:39 AM
    Western stuff Need To Sale! NEW STUFF ADDED 10/9 BlackAmethyst Tack and Equipment Classifieds 11 10-12-2009 02:06 PM
    Horse stuff for sale!! Take a look i am moving and this stuff needs to go!!! shermanismybaby3006 Tack and Equipment Classifieds 9 09-18-2009 12:17 AM
    Saddle and Tack For Sale/Trade + wanted stuff *more stuff* Chicalove Tack and Equipment Classifieds 2 09-14-2009 11:36 PM



    All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:23 PM.


    Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
    Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
    Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0