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Question on western pleasure bred horses

17K views 81 replies 30 participants last post by  farmpony84 
#1 ·
I am a dog person, but I am having to become horse educated because my daughter has the bug.:? I have a questions about horses that are bred for western pleasure. (first off, my understanding of western pleasure is minimal, but that's easier for me to research than my real questions:wink:)

I am wondering why the horses are bred to have their neck stretched out rather than holding their head high? My daughter's lesson horse does this and the other two lesson horses hold their head so high and look so flashy, but the instructor said that my daughter's lesson horse is extremely well bred for western pleasure. In labradors, the build of the dog, and the conformation of the bones is critical to the dog being able to perform well in the field. I am guessing that it goes back to the original purpose and the structure is critical for the job, but I'm wondering about the history of the structure? Does that make any sense. I don't want to know that it's just for showing, because I'm sure that it wasn't just for showing, but there was a more historical purpose.
 
#2 ·
It's not necessarily the breed, it's the training. They are taught to have a low head set.

IMHO it looks very unnatural and I am not a fan of western pleasure today because of how absurdly slow they make these horses work.

I agree, for a horse to use his body correctly when moving, his head needs to be up, not on the ground!

Anyway, I guess you're a labrador person ;) Me too. I have three of them and do agility with them.
 
#3 ·
It's not necessarily the breed, it's the training. They are taught to have a low head set.

IMHO it looks very unnatural and I am not a fan of western pleasure today because of how absurdly slow they make these horses work.

I agree, for a horse to use his body correctly when moving, his head needs to be up, not on the ground!

Anyway, I guess you're a labrador person ;) Me too. I have three of them and do agility with them.
I am a labrador person. I currently have 2 males that we use for hunting and AKC hunt tests. My next one will be a female, and I'll train her for field trials.

I guess as a mommy, I kind of like the slowness of western pleasure. It makes me feel better to see my daughter moving slowly on the horse:wink:
 
#4 ·
Pleasure Horses, yes, are trained to carry their heads that way, but many of them also simply have a natural low headset bred into them.

Western riding is very very different from English. In English riding, you'll see a rider keep fairly constant contact with a horse's mouth. In Western riding, you'll see much more slack in the reins, the horse takes a lower headset, and very minimal contact with the mouth.

It's just one of the structures of Western riding.

But to answer your question, yes, many WP horses are bred with the conformation that lends itself to the low head carriage.
 
#5 ·
I've not done hunt tests. One of my boys has his Working Certificate, but that's all the bird work I did with him because we have Alligators here and I just can't bear to have him in the water!!! Scares the crap out of me ;)

Is your daughter getting a horse?
 
#6 ·
Most successful WP horses these days are bred with the conformation and mentality of having a low headset and slow motions. These 2 attributes are accentuated by training to what you see in the WP show ring. I am with you 7ponies, I don't much care for it either but that is off topic. Some horses also just naturally have a very low headset and that is pretty popular in all western disciplines. I prefer to have my horses carry themselves pretty close to level with the withers but some horses are just bred to carry thier heads very high and others to carry theirs very low. I have a QH that regardless of the training, he is not comfortable carrying his head level or below level. He is built to carry it up so that's what he does. On the other hand, my brother has a 4 year old filly that he just started this summer (she has no WP breeding) that very seldom raises her head above her withers. We don't train for a particular headset and just prefer to let the horses have them where it is comfortable for them (excluding peanut roller and head-in-lap, we train those away right quick).

Anyway, sorry, off topic. When WP competitions first began, they were designed to show off how controlled a horse was at all 3 gaits, how comfortable they were to ride, and how responsive they were to cues (hence the droopy reins). As the decades passed, judges began to judge the horses who carried their heads lower and moved slower as first in the classes because they look more natural and comfortable and relaxed. So people began to breed and train specifically for the low headset and slow legs. Humans that we are, we perverted the natural moving horses into what is referred to as "peanut rollers" which were horses who carried their heads no more than a few inches off the ground and moved so slow it looked like they were on the verge of death (how anyone finds that attractive I'll never know). The WP industry is getting better and moving back toward more natural looking horses but there is still a long way to go. Sorry, letting my opinions leak out again. I guess the moral of my novel is that when it started, a lower head and slower gait = a more relaxed and comfortable looking horse so that is what they started breeding for.
 
#7 ·
SMRob, thanks, that's what I was looking for--a history lesson! So, it's the same thing as with labs. People have taken a longer legged working dog, and bred for short, squatty, belly dragging dogs, many of which won't retrieve and are scared of water. I guess it happens in all disciplines.

7 Ponies, no, my daughter isn't getting a horse yet. Someday maybe, but for the time being, she has claimed her lesson horse pretty aggressively, and right now she's the only one riding him. We are fortunate to have found an extraordinary farm for her to ride at, and the instructor teaches her all about the horses, and responsibility, not just how to ride. Last week my daughter asked about the way he carried his head, and we were told it was because he was bred for western pleasure, but I needed to know more about it--just because I did.:-p
 
#8 ·
Personally, I'll probably never show any horses - most of mine are lowly grades, anyway. I have to say, thought, that I have an extreme dislike of the headset that is so popular today. The horses I used to have would never have made it in any kind of WP classes because they all carried their heads highter than six inches above the ground. I liked the movement they had, with their heads carried slightly higher than their withers, alert and looking around at everything. Nothing surprised, them, that's for sure.

My current mare also has a higher headset. My neighbor (a showhorse snob) recommeded a tie down to force her to carry her head lower. He was NOT happy with my (unrepeatable) reply!
 
#9 ·
Personally, I'll probably never show any horses - most of mine are lowly grades, anyway. I have to say, thought, that I have an extreme dislike of the headset that is so popular today. The horses I used to have would never have made it in any kind of WP classes because they all carried their heads highter than six inches above the ground. I liked the movement they had, with their heads carried slightly higher than their withers, alert and looking around at everything. Nothing surprised, them, that's for sure.

My current mare also has a higher headset. My neighbor (a showhorse snob) recommeded a tie down to force her to carry her head lower. He was NOT happy with my (unrepeatable) reply!
And they probably have a real trot and canter and no joint problems. I hate the WP crowd. Reiners are almost as bad. If you want to show with good people and have fun with a well rounded horse I would try reined cowhorse.
 
#10 · (Edited)
I saw this vid earlier tonight and really liked how this horse carried himself, it is natural but still level and collected. Though he is gonna have some serious hock and stifle trouble when he is older because he doesn't pick up his pivot foot at all during a spin.



But I agree, I love the "ranch pleasure" type carriage and that is what I put on my horses. They are relaxed and in complete control but they can still pick up and MOVE should the need arise.
 
#11 ·
I saw this vid earlier tonight and really liked how this horse carried himself, it is natural but still level and collected. Though he is gonna have some serious hock and stifle trouble when he is older because he doesn't pick up his pivot foot at all during a spin.

YouTube - American Quarter Horse Championships

But I agree, I love the "ranch pleasure" type carriage and that is what I put on my horses. They are relaxed and in complete control but they can still pick up and MOVE should the need arise.
That clip was better than Internet Porn!!!! I love the fence work.
 
#12 ·
Western Bred Pleasure horses are usually bred to have a lower headset, but with training the headset is even lower. It has no purpose other than looks for the show ring. The horses are not collected and could not do any other task with this headset. It couldn't cut cows, rein, or any other of the western disciplines where you see that the horses head is generally above or at wither height. English Pleasure has a similar style, a stretched out horse that is in no way collected and could not jump, do dressage, or even cross country. I personally think that both English and western pleasure are hideous.
 
#15 ·
Agreed!! LOL. Great post AQHA13. Biased as I am since this is my own horse hehe, this is how I like for a horse to travel. Though I allow his head to drop a bit more if he wants it to. At least from here, he can either drop down to watch a cow or pick up to peel out at a dead run if the need arises.

 
#16 ·
WP and EP is not the same as it was 20 years ago but show me any sport that is the exact same! every sport has evolved over the years newer training ways, steroids, etc... the horse world is no different! It's starting to slowly get out of the peanut rollers which i don't see much at our local open shows anymore. I show WP just local stuff nothing big but i think a horse who carries themselves with a level head at the poll collected nicely is like poetry in motion! the horses who heads are 6 inchs from the ground and looks like they could do a somer sault any min makes me cringe! i never liked that look and never understood it but then again why does any sport change for better or for worse??
 
#17 ·
People who don't know a lot about western pleasure horses are the ones to put all the attention on the head carriage. When you start to learn about what truly makes a western pleasure horse, you start looking at the horse's legs, shoulders, hip, and back before you ever look at where the head is.
 
#20 ·
A modern day pleasure horse that's bred specifically for the pleasure pen will not need any training or gadgets to learn to carry their head level, their conformation makes that the most comfortable headset for them. I've NEVER used any sort of gadget on my mare to force her head down.. in fact I sometimes find myself asking her to pick her head up because she gets lazy and tries to get our of work. I just have to pick up my hand slightly and she gets the message and picks herself back up.

It's really annoying when people group ALL pleasure people into the "head tying, making them go unnatural" category. There's bad seeds in every discipline. It would be like me saying everyone who does dressage does rollkur and forces their horses chin to their chest, but I don't do that. Why? Because I know not everyone who does dressage uses rollkur.

Also is this not a "real" trot, or is my mare just faking it?
 
#23 · (Edited)
Haley, your horse does look natural and nicely extended. It is the ones who DO force the horse into a headset they are not built for an force them to move slower than they should creating that horrible choppy, lame looking gait that give everyone else a bad rap. Like I said, they are getting better but still not where I would like to see them personally. It has also always seemed to me that the english pleasure horses generally seem a bit more natural than the western pleasure horses, to my eyes anyway. :? I don't know.

It is really a matter of personal preferance I guess. Since I do more ranch type work, I like to have a horse who's head is up a little and they can see for long distances. I can't count how many times my horse has seen cattle that I missed. For the show ring, it's fine to carry it really low so long as it isn't uncomfortable or damaging to the horse but on the ranch, a horse with that carriage wouldn't be good for much. My ideal WP horse (if he were a little more extended) would look like this:


But this mare is carrying herself too high and it doesn't look natural
 
#28 ·
But this mare is carrying herself too high and it doesn't look natural
I disagree. She looks like she's going somewhere and has something to do when she gets there. I like both of them but if I got to choose I would pick this mare to ride over the other.
 
#25 · (Edited)
My mare isn't even bred to be a HUS horse (she's only 15.1hh, though she doesn't look it).. her old owner told me she thought she'd never be able to do it. We just started for fun this year and to everyone's surprise she's taken to it quite well. Her real forte' is Trail anyway, which is better than any rail class in my oppinion! Haha.

I was at a Paint show last weekend and not a single horse there was 4 beating. Paint seams to have changed a lot faster than QH though. The last QH show I was at (August), quite a few of those horses looked unnatural and lame. At the APHA show though, every single horse had a great cadenced lope with a deeep hock. Not the 4 beating head bobbing thing that was in a few years ago.

Now, I agree with you - that's the frame I like on pleasure horses too. Poll level with withers, nose slightly outside of the verticle, and the hind end engaged is important too. I can't stand seeing horses trailing their hind end dragging themselves around on their front end. Not a very pretty picture.

I've had people, who don't even like WP comment on how natural and "true" my mare's jog is, how it actually looks like a pleasure to ride and she doesn't look like she's lame and half walking half jogging. Which is nice to hear obviously, and quite true too. I just like it when I can hopefully maybe change some peoples minds about WP and Pleasure horses. :]

Yeah, sorry about that. I just get mad when people basically say because I have a pleasure horse she MUST be un-natural and she MUST be lame and she doesn't know how to properly collect and use herself.
 
#26 ·
Ya know what...I love western pleasure. I've ridden dozens of diciplines and trained in several events and Western pleasure is, by far, one of the most technical and difficult to teach.

Many of those who oppose it either don't know about it or don't know about the leaps and bounds that it has come in the passed few years. It's a beautiful dicipline.

I had the opportunity to ride with a WP trainer and train my own horse for it.
The horse I trained for it was all cow bred, but was built and moved like a pleasure horse. Not once in her training did the trainer mention head carriage. It was all and only about collection and forming the muscles to do so consistantly. Counter arcing and maintaining cadence...

Pleasure horse build isnt about having your horse's nose hang as low as it can. It's all about the horse being comfortable and natural in a relaxed head carriage while still being able to maintain an incredible amount of collection.
It is... whether many of you think so or not... Dressage on a loose rein.

Here's the filly, with only a short time in pleasure training. Excuse the attire-When it's cold... I dress comfy.



doc delibero video by mrgunsmokeluver - Photobucket
Point being, I never asked her to drop her head. Every time I touched the reins, it was to get her shoulder up. She was a lazy horse and had days where she wanted you to hold her up.

This horse could do more than pleasure. She could also run barrels...eventually being able to clock 2D times before I stopped her training.


She also had an innate desire to work a cow.

But then, on the other end, I rode another cow bred horse who simple was uncomfortable when I asked him to collect and lower his head carriage. It's easy for some horses and others, it's not. The one who had a hard time collecting, was also a 1D/2D barrel horse.
 
#29 ·
No, It's not that it doesn't look natural for a horse, its that it doesn't look natural for her. She normally had a very level head carriage so I don't know if she got spooked by the camera man or the flash but that was not how she would normally carry her head. I love how extended her legs are though.

But of course, this pic was taken in the 70's, before the peanut roller look really took off.
 
#33 ·
Okay so I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but actually there IS a purpose for a horse carrying their head low. I have watched plenty of Clinton Anderson training vidoes and Larry Trocha, etc. They say that you WANT the horse to carry the head low (NOT TOO LOW), but vertical with the spine, but it helps keep a stronger top line. They say the horses that carry they head high their whole life will have a weak back eventually and in some cases, the back will bow in. I have seen this many many times on horses who have carried their head high.

Also, many QH are used for cattle ranches, if you take a horse out on the ranch and have cattle to move, not all cattle follow by the rules. If a calf or cow happens to duck under the horse, that horse needs to be collected and ready to turn and get that cow back in with the group. If a horse is out there with their head held high, I am sure they won't be as collected to do the job. A horse needs to be eye level with those cows and ready to spin on a time. So please don't judge horses that have a low headset because you think it looks rediculous. Every breed has their reason on how they carry themselves, how they were BRED to carry themselves. It is not just for show. :)
 
#34 ·
This is about the height I like my horses head. The horse works well with their head at this level. However you will see them at different levels depending on not only conformation and training but also breeding plays a big role in it also.

 
#35 ·
People are ignorant. As Mira said. Instead of bashing stuff you have no clue about, go educate yourself... Don't ask a bunch of people that THINK they know...

I personally think ignorant people shouldn't be around horses. If you don't want to learn about it first, just don't do it. Don't. Do. It. If you don't know about it, don't talk about it.

I have no clue about pygmy marmosets. Does that mean I'm going to get online and bash them? Absolutely not. Why? Because thats what makes sense.
 
#36 ·
I wish the 70's type WP horse would return as I am contemplating retraining my 2nd level dressage horse to do trail classes and maybe some local WP classes just for fun. (Dressage burn out here ;) )
But the way he is built (16hh and large boned, big gaits) I might get laughed at. :)
 
#37 ·
Mostly the super low horses heads are the new bred Quater horses, the judges look for that, I have one, and he dosn't hold his head super high, but holds it up just high enough not to look like he is sleepy..
I find that the new Quater horse style makes them look drugged, I wouldn't dought it would be so eather..
 
#38 ·
In the defense of us "bashers", it is not just the head carriage that we are concentrating on, that is just the most obvious point. When I look at a WP horse that is not encouraged to really pick up and move, I see a horse that is droopy, sluggish, and lethargic with completely unnatural gaits. I was the first to admit that WP is getting better now and is moving toward more natural horses but when a normal horse can walk faster than a WP horse can lope, then there is a problem IMHO.

And just so we are all clear, there is a big difference between a horse that travels like this (level, alert, with some extension to his movement while still being collected)


And one that travels like this (too low, too slow, choppy, and zero extension). During a natural gait, a horse should place his off hind leg slightly in front of his inside hind leg during a canter and there should be a moment of suspension where all 4 hooves are off the ground at the same time.
 
#48 ·
In the defense of us "bashers", it is not just the head carriage that we are concentrating on, that is just the most obvious point. When I look at a WP horse that is not encouraged to really pick up and move, I see a horse that is droopy, sluggish, and lethargic with completely unnatural gaits. I was the first to admit that WP is getting better now and is moving toward more natural horses but when a normal horse can walk faster than a WP horse can lope, then there is a problem IMHO.

And just so we are all clear, there is a big difference between a horse that travels like this (level, alert, with some extension to his movement while still being collected)
YouTube - Clinton Anderson Riding Diez Bridleless

And one that travels like this (too low, too slow, choppy, and zero extension). During a natural gait, a horse should place his off hind leg slightly in front of his inside hind leg during a canter and there should be a moment of suspension where all 4 hooves are off the ground at the same time.
YouTube - This Invitations Fancy
I agree with you on this one. I don't mind the jog of the second horse, but the lope isnt fluid. Fortunately, that's something that could be easily fixed by just letting the horse extend and ride up into the bridle.

There will always be opinions on this dicipline or that dicipline. I have mine... I know what I'd rather see...but that doesnt make the dicipline itself an abomination. That just means that it has room to grow and evolve.


POINT being... sitting on a dinky little WP thread and bashing the heck out of the dicipline isnt going to change one single thing. Don't like it? Want it to be more natural? Get out there and make a difference!
If you can do it better...SHOW US!
I know several AQHA judges... they judge what they can with what they have in the class. Change the competitors and you'll change the dicipline.
Someone has to stand up and get out there to change the appearance of these horses.

Bashing will get no one anywhere. If you feel that passionately about the look/movement of these horses, be pro-active!... Not just another computer jockey...
 
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