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Western horse head position.

26K views 101 replies 36 participants last post by  OhSoAppy 
#1 ·
When I first started in horses, seems like a life time ago, the head position on a western horse was level with it's body, not higher and not lower.

Why has this changed? Why? Why???
It looks so unnatural, to have the horses head so low. It reminds me of those ( bad, bad) peoples horses who had their poor heads tied up for the entire morning until their western class came up and the poor horse had no choice but to have his head so low it' nose was draggin the ground like a blood hound.

Now that is all I see, that lower than top-line headset, it looks like the horse is sick or tired or maybe just sickn'tired, don't know but can someone please,please tell me the rationale behind this?

Maybe if I were to understand the reasoning, I would have an " aw-ha" moment and not be so obsessed. LOL.
 
#2 · (Edited)
I wish I could tell you. -sigh-

I've been dying to finish Jester's ROM's but I can't because his head set is level wit hhis body and you won't get anything good unless your horses nose leaves tracks in the dirt.

I mean, really. I took him to a trail class last summer. EVERY SINGLE HORSE spooked at the tarp, wouldn't open the gate, and only two people crossed the bridge. Hmph! Some trail horses.

So I took Jester in and I made him look at all the obstacles, but he just went along over everything. Danced all over the tarp, sidepassed to open the gate, and without even a moments hesitation her went right over the bridges. His haunch turns were perfect (Reining horse :D ) and he went through every obstacle with no problem. Even the rubber carwash thing he didn't even flick his ears.

And we got last place. Judge's reasoning: His head was up too far. W T F? Those horses all had their nose buried in the dirt but they spooked and wouldn't cross abstacles, the most anyone ever did was half the course. We even did it in a respectable time.

What is this world coming to?
 
#40 ·
And we got last place. Judge's reasoning: His head was up too far. W T F? Those horses all had their nose buried in the dirt but they spooked and wouldn't cross abstacles, the most anyone ever did was half the course. We even did it in a respectable time.

What is this world coming to?
In trail, the judges want the horse to lower its head to the obstacles. I do not know why they want trail horses do lower their heads to the ground, but they do. Hence why if you wanna do trail, your horse's head better be to the ground. I think this is NOT TRUE "trail horses" to me, trail is normal clothing and a relaxed and fun horse. Speed doesnt matter and neither does head postition.
 
#3 · (Edited)
Its not all western. I don't have their head as ow, as I don't do WP. I just trail ride a gymkhana.

I rode a WP horse one time with a WP instructor, while my mare was on stall rest with a splint bone. Needless to say, key word is once. never did that again. It's not even very pleasure-ful. their lope is all weird and funny, and you have to concentrate so much at home when you practise to keep them going at a good pace and their heads low and such. I don't see the "pleasure" in that. Plus the position the rider has to be in all the time is uncomfy, at least for me. The horse and rider both usually look stiff/rigid. Just MHO.

I find my western pleasure as "western fun". Its just hopping on and riding for fun. lol. I mean, I think its the AQHA/APHA WP thats so messed. Compare AQHA WP:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3579/3407682266_c8bd30a5e1.jpg

with this:
http://www.ladyluckranch.com/horses/roxie/roxie600.jpg

its amazing. Which one looks more beautiful and pleasure-ful?

Plus, it just doesn't look comfy for the horse. Now, it may be entirely different, but that what it looks like, even if its not true.
EDIT
Look at the first 2 min of this vid:

The lope on this morgan looks UGLY:


I guess the point is to be slow, but I guess it doesn't have to be pretty.....
 
#25 ·
Its not all western. I don't have their head as ow, as I don't do WP. I just trail ride a gymkhana.

I rode a WP horse one time with a WP instructor, while my mare was on stall rest with a splint bone. Needless to say, key word is once. never did that again. It's not even very pleasure-ful. their lope is all weird and funny, and you have to concentrate so much at home when you practise to keep them going at a good pace and their heads low and such. I don't see the "pleasure" in that. Plus the position the rider has to be in all the time is uncomfy, at least for me. The horse and rider both usually look stiff/rigid. Just MHO.

I find my western pleasure as "western fun". Its just hopping on and riding for fun. lol. I mean, I think its the AQHA/APHA WP thats so messed. Compare AQHA WP:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3579/3407682266_c8bd30a5e1.jpg

with this:
http://www.ladyluckranch.com/horses/roxie/roxie600.jpg

its amazing. Which one looks more beautiful and pleasure-ful?

Plus, it just doesn't look comfy for the horse. Now, it may be entirely different, but that what it looks like, even if its not true.
EDIT
Look at the first 2 min of this vid:
YouTube- AQHA Western Pleasure Video
The lope on this morgan looks UGLY:
YouTube- morgan stallion western pleasure - Baccarat's Visionary

I guess the point is to be slow, but I guess it doesn't have to be pretty.....


I don't know about everyone else, but I would rather have my trail horse move like the Morgan in the video than the Quarter Horse in the video. She's not as bad as some, but the Morgan looks like he has a lot more impulsion from behind and would be a blast to ride. You would feel like you had some horse power under you. I guess that's what bothers me about the WP QH's, they move like they only 1/4 the horse power. :lol:
 
#5 ·
I personally think that whoever came up with the head position for a horse in WP had a screw loose. It looks unnatural, and the whole look of the horse reminds me of one of those exhausted horses in the war memorials.

It also can bring on a lot of nasty training methods: I know a trainer who's trying to get an Arab to get his head down for WP. This particular Arab loves holding his head way up high, so the garbage that trainer is pulling on him to get his head down...
 
#7 ·
I think what happened was someone had a great horse that carried his head slightly lower then the rest. people mimiced. Another great horse came along that carried his head even lower... people followed, then... another great horse came along.....and so on and so forth...


I've seen horses tied like that at shows. They pin in EVERY class, bring home the big wins. Their eyes are dull and they look like they've gone deep inside themselves, they have little personality and I think it's how they survive the miserable place they are in. I wonder if that's how they live their life, at home, tied all the time.

I want to win big, I want to pin high. I just love my horses personality so much and I want to go in the ring and know that I won because I'm that good. Or because my horse is that good. Not because my trainer knows all of the tricks in the book. My trainer actually knows the tricks because when I see something and I ask why, she can tell me, she just chooses not to use all those tricks.....
 
#84 ·
I've seen horses tied like that at shows. They pin in EVERY class, bring home the big wins. Their eyes are dull and they look like they've gone deep inside themselves, they have little personality and I think it's how they survive the miserable place they are in. I wonder if that's how they live their life, at home, tied all the time.
all i cab say is that all of the shows ive been too ive never seen any like that. and ive gone to paint and pinto worlds. and it is illegal to do that anyways(in breed horse rules)
 
#8 ·
My trainer actually knows the tricks because when I see something and I ask why, she can tell me, she just chooses not to use all those tricks.....
Or perhaps she doesn't, and she's being ignorant like most of the people who are bashing the same thing over and over and over and over again.

Horses never look like they're enjoying themselves in dressage either, yet no one dares to bash the cranked nose band, double bridle, tail swishing discipline.

Why was this thread even started? TO bash. That's why. Just like so many others, and honestly I'm sick of it.
 
#10 ·
1. She said she can point it out, not that she is bashing anything. And SO WHAT if anyone is bashing anyone over and over, as long as people see a problem they will talk about it. I highly doubt some one is ignorant(ya know as in unknowng, what that word means) just because you think the point is moot, don't read it of you don't like it. If the only way people on here could post is if it was a new topic every time, I am positive the forum would die, everything at this point is pretty much cliche.

2. Yes, they do. People bash them just as much.

3. So, what is your problem? Don't read the thread if you don't like it. Let them have their little bashing party if they want you, noone said a thing about you here, no need to defend something that has nothing to do with you personally.
 
#9 ·
Regardless of what you see, this is what you are SUPPOSED to be seeing, as decreed by the AQHA;

nose is carried behind the vertical consistently.
464. WESTERN PLEASURE
(a) A good pleasure horse has a free-flowing stride of reasonable
length in keeping with his conformation. He should cover a reasonable
amount of ground with little effort. Ideally, he should have a
balanced, flowing motion, while exhibiting correct gaits that are of
the proper cadence.
The quality of the movement and the consistency
of the gaits is a major consideration. He should carry his head and
neck in a relaxed, natural position, with his poll level with or slightly
above the level of the withers. He should not carry his head behind
the vertical
, giving the appearance of intimidation, or be excessively
nosed out, giving a resistant appearance. His head should be level
with his nose slightly in front of the vertical, having a bright expression
with his ears alert. He should be shown on a reasonably loose
rein, but with light contact and control. He should be responsive, yet
smooth, in transitions when called for. When asked to extend, he
should move out with the same flowing motion. Maximum credit
should be given to the flowing, balanced and willing horse that gives
the appearance of being fit and a pleasure to ride.
(b) A show may have up to three western

Unfortunately, judges are......?????
 
#11 ·
Or perhaps she doesn't, and she's being ignorant like most of the people who are bashing the same thing over and over and over and over again.

Horses never look like they're enjoying themselves in dressage either, yet no one dares to bash the cranked nose band, double bridle, tail swishing discipline.

Why was this thread even started? TO bash. That's why. Just like so many others, and honestly I'm sick of it.
LOL! Really? You've NEVER seen dressage bashing? Heard of Rollkur?
 
#12 ·
Oh ya. You can see the "smoothness" in this lope*eye roll*


This is a real peanut-roller:


No offence to those WP riders on this forum that love what they do, but serious WP(IMHO) is all about "The Lower, The Slower".
 
#26 ·
Oh ya. You can see the "smoothness" in this lope*eye roll*
YouTube - This Invitations Fancy
God that's an awful lope. If one of my horse's moved like that I would wear some spurs and kick them right out of it. Or retire them as a lawn ornament. I wouldn't want a $500 trail horse moving like that. Is it so awful for a horse to MOVE? I don't mean be disobedient, but actually move out a little? With some impulsion from behind?

I would like to see western pleasure more like reining horses. You can leave out the sliding stops and the spins, but seriously, let the horses canter normally!
 
#13 ·
Western pleasure should be about having a pleasureable ride. The horses nowadays have been broke to death and they have bad methods. I mean, I'm all for having a nice, calm, well-broke horse but only if that horse is happy.
 
#14 ·
Yep! Exactly!
And as a side note: At least most people think dressage looks pretty! WP doesn't, IMHO. It gives western riding a bad name. AGain, just MY opinion. You don't have to like it. :)
 
#15 ·
Trainers train for what wins. Riders ride what wins breeders breed what wins. Judges can only judge what is put in front of them. So if you do not like what is out there then put something different in front of the judges and hope that it is what the judges want to see.
 
#31 · (Edited)
Trainers train for what wins. Riders ride what wins breeders breed what wins. Judges can only judge what is put in front of them. So if you do not like what is out there then put something different in front of the judges and hope that it is what the judges want to see.

I think it has to START with the judges. They determine what wins, therefore what is produced. If the judges stick to the standards, eventually things will change.


Oh, and BTW, I have been in a show where the judges decided no one did things properly enough to get a blue ribbon. The places were from second on down. I was in that class and agreed that neither I, or anyone else, did things well enough. I applauded the judges courage.
 
#17 ·
^^That is the movement yes, but it is not 100%, or even close for that matter. They seem to be working on it though. And I agree with SorrelHorse too, BTW. Don't whine because you don't place by doing the right thing, just be patient, respect your horse,continue to follow the rules and ask for proper movement, and hope the right thing comes back into vogue.
 
#21 ·
Glad to hear the "movement" is at least happening. But, I am not one to stand by and hope it comes back into vogue either. Things get changed becuase we make them change. I say stand up for your " doing the right thing", let those in charge know what the majority wants and remind them of the rules that are written on how it should be. There is nothing wrong with fighting for what is right, or what you feel is right.
On the other hand, IF a horse carries his head that low NATURALY, then it is the natural set for that horse, others should not be forced into that set, nor judged down becuase their " natural" set is different than others'.

Any WP judges out there care to tell me why they look for that? or if they judge down or not due to the head set.?
 
#19 · (Edited)
Peetz, there really is no rationale other than people do it to win. as has been said, somewhere down the line someone with a good deal of sway probably decided that was right and others followed, thus the peanut roller epidemic began. Now even though some are trying to change things, others will defend it to the end and become rude and unwilling to even try to explain why. That is just what happens...

The same with all other odd horse shower practices like keeping a grazing animal stalled 24 hours a day and fed only a concentrated diet,, purposefully "jet lagging" a horse by keeping it under lights 24 hours a day to keep it form taking part in the natural shedding cycle, keeping them wrapped from head to tail to prevent the ANIMAL from getting dirty or blemished heaven forbid, physically altering a horses body to make it move unnaturally or to prevent it from showing discomfort, bleeding a horse out to make it more docile, using irritants and chemicals to alter how a horse moves, ect.... It is all about the ribbon.
 
#20 ·
Like I stated in my post earlier. If that is all that is being presented to the judges then that is what they have to work with and place. SO it is what ends up winning. Then what wins it was is bred for what is trained for and what is shown. It comes down to a vicious circle.

WP is not like Dressage or Reining or cutting or reined cow horse. The judge has to place a horse first second third and so on. There is no way to judge past that if what is winning is correct or would win in other company. Where with the other disciplines I listed you can. Each horse is give a score so even if a horse wins they can easily be compared to a horse from a different show. You know who good that horse really is compared to the standard. With WP and some other events you can not.

So until some one enters a horse that is correct with good movement that is well trained nothing can change. If the horse is not there the judge can only place what is presented to him. It is that simple.
 
#23 ·
As I have said many times on this forum, the really atrocious part of WP is the gates the horses are forced into. Now many of the WP riders on hear will tell you that it is getting better and horses are moving freer but the world champion horses are still dragging a hind leg at a "lope" and making a mess of a trot as well. Judges don't have to give any ribbons if they don't want to. If I went to judge a class and I called for a lope and felt like no horse actually did it I would disqualify the whole class. Chances are really good that would be the last show that I ever judged but it would make a memorable statement. If I were to show in a WP or trail class I would make sure that I recorded the entire thing and if I felt that the winner should not have won I would take it up with the judge and the show commitee. It would be hard to argue with that kind of evidence.
 
#24 ·
The drag leg thing I totally agree with, someone posted the WC on another thread saying oooh, she looks natural and free and collected... she looked like Igor dragging her leg behind her to have it on the ground for balance, lurching forward in that pitiful gait... hey, a new name for it instead of "lope your horses please" it should be "LURCH your horses please" more accurate anyway.
 
#28 ·
I have a drive to know why things are the way they are. At my next show I will ask the judges why they place horses the way they do and see what they have to say. As a current college students ( RN, BSN, forensic nursing) I love to use the " I am doing a paper on" line and they seem to respond favorably. I am not out to bash anyone or anything, simply to gain a better understanding of why people to the things they do and follow trends IF they feel they are not so proper. It is more of a research into the thinking patters of a person than the head set of a horse ( I suppose). If I can get one [judge] to question the practice and make they ask themselves " why DO I judge that way?" Then.....
 
#29 ·
I have a drive to know why things are the way they are. At my next show I will ask the judges why they place horses the way they do and see what they have to say. As a current college students ( RN, BSN, forensic nursing) I love to use the " I am doing a paper on" line and they seem to respond favorably. I am not out to bash anyone or anything, simply to gain a better understanding of why people to the things they do and follow trends IF they feel they are not so proper. It is more of a research into the thinking patters of a person than the head set of a horse ( I suppose). If I can get one [judge] to question the practice and make they ask themselves " why DO I judge that way?" Then.....
I've spent lots of time in the middle of the ring next to the judges & have asked this same question. The judges have always been very informative & make it easy to understand.

I think you will find out that the judges do not really consider the headset of the horse in their placings. They look at how the horse moves, how broke it is, how responsive to the rider it is, etc. The headset is only one small part of the whole picture that the judge sees. What does the judge do if the head is in an ideal position, yet the horse picks up the wrong lead? Breaks gait? Has a rider that is hindering the horse? There will be another horse in the class that might have a lower headset, but had a flawless performance by a welll-seasoned rider that will have to be placed ahead of the horse with the more ideal headset position.

WP riders make it look easy, what ever it is that they do. But if you were really going to give WP a shot, you'll find out it's a whole different story when you set out to get your horse ready for a WP class. I have a feeling if some of the people that have posted on this thread & the other WP "bashing" threads truly give WP a try, they will find a whole new appreciation for it. It's like your mama should have told you when you were growing up: "Don't knock it til you try it."



<Now I'm going out to ride my 3 yr old who WANTS to hang his head at his knees & I have to constantly remind him to pick it up and at least carry it level.>
 
#35 ·
If I was offered a world champion WP horse for free, I would turn it down. I have ridden some WP horses and I don't like it. It always feels like they are about to just buckle out from under me and God forbid there be a little bump or a rock in the road, they drag their feet so much they would probably trip over it. I understand all the training that it gets to make a horse move like that, my Dad trained show horses for close to 30 years, but it really serves no purpose other than to win in the show ring. I could never ride a trail on a horse like that because his face would get all scratched up by the weeds and he wouldn't be able to see where he was going. I could never work cattle on a horse like that because like RiosDad once said, it would take 3 days to push the cattle out of the back 40. I could never sort cattle on one because they can't move fast enough. I understand wanting a horse that is incredibly broke, but that is the problem, so many of those horses are broke. Do they make good beginner horses? Yes. But, what happens when the beginner gets a little more advanced and is ready to step it up a little bit? The horse has to go away for re-training so that they can move more naturally.

I don't like it and will never own a WP horse, but I can't change the minds of others. Just don't tell me that they move naturally, cause they don't. If it was natural for a horse to do that, it wouldn't take hours of specialized training every week to get them to move like that.
 
#102 ·
I don't like it and will never own a WP horse, but I can't change the minds of others. Just don't tell me that they move naturally, cause they don't. If it was natural for a horse to do that, it wouldn't take hours of specialized training every week to get them to move like that.
Every horse, in every discipline, training for the top levels of what they do train for hours. Do you think an Oldenburg filly comes out already at FEI Level? It takes years, and years of specialized training to perform at the level.

As do Olympic athletes, and Sport professionals.

The thing is, it is natural for these horses. The training simply pushes them to perform at the best of their ability.
 
#36 ·
Once again Smrobs, I applaud you dear. You make a rational argument as to why you do not like the movement, who can argue with that logic? I especially like the "Just don't tell me that they move naturally, cause they don't. If it was natural for a horse to do that, it wouldn't take hours of specialized training every week to get them to move like that." That is exactly it, if it was natural in the least they would not have to spend all those long hours to teach the horse to do it.

 
#37 ·
I was always taught that the head is level with the withers. My WP is not one of those horses who drag my horse is collected and pushes from behind he is faster. We win. it impresses people to see a well controled old fashiond WP horse not a horse who's nose touches the ground.
Just my .02
 
#38 ·
#39 ·
This picture looks how I think a WP should move/look:
http://quarterhorse.ws/qbfarm/images/danni_and_lil.jpg
Sadly, the judges would probably favor this:
http://www.postquarterhorses.com/html/uploaded_images/ruby111-784434.jpg

That is what I am talking about! I have seen shows where the winner can not transition from walk to trot without hopping and head bobbing, can't get the correct lead for half way around the ring while the other four horse and riders seemed ( I say seemed because I am not a judge) to do these things well, without issues and when asked why they placed the horses in the winning orders, the responce was " their heads were way to high!" The winning horse carries himself properly." Yes, we were all shocked. If I had the wear-with-all about me I would have asked for clarification at that time. The rider looked as if she would fall over his head any moment during the class, no wonder he stumbles at the transition!
Just seems discouraging, may have to go out of town to do a show.

Another question. Do they [judges] consider breed in a WP show when they judge? I could use my TB gelding, he has a great English/dressage head set naturally. lol
 
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