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dressage, what's the use? Convince me?

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dressage
15K views 90 replies 25 participants last post by  Palfrey 
#1 ·
Dear fellow riders


I am a beginning rider and lots of folks tell me that dressage is the basis of everything and that I should be able to do this. But... I don't understand why and I do not see the use. I know that you should be able to do some basic dressage for eventing (I want to eventually go into cross country/military and I am more interested in long distance running, running (jockey style) and maybe some jumping.)To be honest... I am totally not motivated to ride circles, squares and 8 figures... This is not meant to be offensive, but I am the kind of person that is only motivated when I see the use of something... :D Probabmy my horse also feels that I do not like it (I noticed this). :D Can some more experienced riders explain to me why I should be able to do dressage and how much of it should I be able to do when I want to go into military riding? :) Why is it necessary that my horse and I can do this? (reasons?) Is it for the muscles of the horse? Because If the only reason people do this is because it is required at contest riding, I still think it is useless (like why did someone ever decide you have to wear white?) Or do people only do this for their own fun/to watch horses doing nice things? :|
 
#46 ·
Thanks! :) I want to learn a lot, that's why I ask questions. Also I really did not understand the need of dressage (since I am a beginner I only knew that it was used in the military and that you can kinda control horse body movement). Me saying 'I don't understand the need is not me saying ''I think this is useless''. ;) Also in several sports people do all kinds of stuff just because of tradition. Like some people used to beat horses or stand on them to 'break' them and in the process thinking this was right.... I was just wondering... Maybe dressage is like that too: just a tradition <= hope this doesn't add to the language confusion, not relating dressage to abuse, just to tradition.



I just wanted the opinions and experiences of some more experienced riders. I am of course not a good horseman, since I have 0 experience. I also don't really know what the general popular opinions on horses are... I only knew I tried English riding and did not like it (I felt bad and confused during these lessons. This is probably my own problem, but anyways I decided to do something that I really enjoyed). A friend said: well, I know you well. I have a horse that is trained in neck reining and I ride it with a western saddle and bitless, this is something that suits you. You are gonna get along with the horse. Come and try. And so my journey began. :)
 
#47 ·
also in the english riding school they had a horse that would not stand still when mounting it, it was moving, skittish, making sounds and really scared. They let a kid get on it and ride it. It stomped the hore walking behind him... I was like... I dunno much about horses but this riding school doesn't seem right if they don't help their horse to calm down and they let a kid get on top of a scared horse... :s I informed myself (have some friends that rode for 20 years) and they told me to go with the private western classes (1 trainer, a horse and me) since there are no good western riding schools in the neighbourhood. I was in no case gonna ride in the school where they had this scared horse and did not even bother to explain what was happening... (they schould have told the pupils: this is what happening, this horse feels this, now you can do x and x... this behaviour comes from x and x. You should handle it x and x)
 
#52 ·
I think your problem with english riding is not that it was english but that you had a poor experience. You wnet in with an expectation that was not matched by your experience so you are ready to write off english riding as a whole. I find the potential here is to get overly caught up in the whole "natural" experience and lose sight of the possibilities.



While there are poor instructors many times IME I find that it is the student's lack of understanding combined with either a lack of communication (both party's fault) rather than a necessarily poor instructor. It is easy to blame the instructor. There are also students(G) that have a stubborn streak about their level and closed mind to what is being taught. We don't always see the entire picture watching just a few lessons or even taking just a few lessons. Failure to communicate to each other, to the horse, even to ourselves (accepting we may not be where we think we are) means we (G) need to step back and reevaluate the situation. All that said there are poor instructors, there are poor matches made between horse and rider and there are poor students. Was it one, the other or a combination?
 
#54 ·
Well, I gotta start somewhere and I decided to take the private lessons in western. We will see from there how it evolves. It just happened to be that my friends schooled their horses mostly western. :) I don't write English off, I just don't want to do it for now. That's my good right isn't it? I don't want to do it (now) because I tried it on several occasions (not only in that barn) and I felt bad about a lot of stuff. This is my problem (I know...), it is difficult to explain but I really need to have more confidence and I get that by riding only one horse for now (that is well trained and kind), having one instructor (that knows me) and being alone with her and not in a big group... I feel stressed in a big group and that transfers to the horses and me trying to learn.
 
#53 ·
I am going to go ahead and share this. I am not saying this is you but illustrating a situation where assumptions could be easily made by any one watching.



I have two children living with me that I enrolled in lessons for a multitude of reasons. I enrolled them with the instructor I rode with when I moved here (still ride with though more for pleasure) and have had my child with for 8 years now. I trust her judgement and her horses. I also trust her ability to read her students. She trusts that I (any parent) shares any information that may be useful to her understanding of the student (mindset, abilities, physical issues that would effect riding).



Neither of these two children understand or know enough nor been exposed to enough to realize that there are options beyond the very basics of english saddle vs western saddle.



Both children want to ride and as scouts wanted their merit badge. These two started lessons to improve their skills, learn about horse care basics and become safe riders. Why? Because we have horses and I didn't want them just thinking they could jump on and cowboy off. Why an instructor and not myself? I'm already the "bad" guy in this relationship due to circumstances beyond my control. This needed to be something they enjoy and instruction/correction needed to come from an outside person. One of the boys has a natural ability (N2) and would make a better rider if he would lose the "I know it all" and "I'm in control" attitude. Physically (strength wise) he has more potential and better motor control but doesn't make use of it effectively. The other (N1) has neurological issues that effect physical ability as well as body strength that is just not where it should be for his age and size. The issues are mild but they are noticeable and make a big difference in his potential as a rider. The difference. The child with more ability(N2) lacks commitment, willingness to listen and apply and has a conceit that negatively effects his riding. He'll tell you he is better than my child that has been on horseback since before he could walk and that everything is the horse's fault never his own or the instructor's fault or even my fault. Again - never his own. He won't look inside to even consider that possibility as he is so closed minded and egotistical. The other(N1) is committed, follows instruction, does the exercises the instructor asks him to do between lessons and applies himself. Technically he has become the better rider though he looks awkward and still lacks strength (it is slowly developing). He gets more compliance and willingness from the horse he is riding than his brother. For their merit badge test they both were riding horses they had ridden during the course of lessons. Both have been riding since late February. N1 was put on a large, big moving but smooth horse that fits his length of leg, (lack of) balance and does well with all levels of riders. N2 ended up on a tank of a pony that will read a rider and respond accordingly with either obedience or disobedience. He isn't bad but this pony does take a rider that is correct and clear in expectations. He is very strong willed. Actually both are very strong willed.When N2 listens and rides correctly there are no problems. When N2 cops an attitude and gets sloppy the pony takes control. Mid way through the test (which lasted quite a bit longer than it should have as N1 had already done the required moves but N2 was having major issues) N1 was asked to hold pony and give the horse he had ridden to N2. N1 had done all that was required as well as cantered but N2 couldn't keep pony in the ring or get him back in the ring in a timely manner, couldn't get him to change gaits, couldn't keep him on the rail, couldn't get him to back, couldn't get him to circle. N1 hasn't been put on the pony because of balance issues and lack of coordination and strength. He wanted to continue riding and with no other horse available he was told he could go ahead and ride pony at the top of the arena. I think the instructor and I were both holding our breath waiting for a fall. But, do you know what happened? N1 did just fine. He took control, gave a firm correction for the first infraction and rode the test a second time perfectly on the pony. Pony never left the ring, stayed on the rail, circled well and changed gaits or backed when asked. N2 had to be coached through and prompted on the generally compliant other horse. Guess which boy has permission to saddle up and ride with my child on our horses?



My child doesn't like and up to this point had not wanted to compete. He is there to learn, to spend time with others that enjoy the same things and for the opportunity to ride more challenging horses as well as jump which is a passion of his. He has ridden with this instructor since he was 7. She doesn't pressure him to compete but does push him to ride to the best of his ability and continue to improve. He also has issues that effect his ability - most of which he has overcome with this instructor. She knew going in though that he had issues. He has also tried his hand at western riding. When he showed an interest his instructor suggested someone she thought would work well with him. He loved it and truly appreciated the time he spent but realized he is where he wants to be. Other instructor's would have not pushed at all or pushed him out of their program.

N2 is telling people he already knew how to ride, the horses are trash, the instructor is mean and riding isn't a real sport. N1 wants to continue and learn how to jump eventually and wants to ride pony more.



Anyone watching just about any lesson with these two and the third child that has Jacobsen syndrome would take what they saw at face value and move to another barn. All three children look like normal kids. But what anyone watching doesn't see says so much more about this instructor and where these kids will eventually end up with their abilities, their confidence levels and their accomplishments.
 
#55 ·
okay, maybe you are right... This might have been the case. (btw I always think that any mistakes are almost entirely on my part. I don't think I can judge the capabilities of an instructor since I am a total beginner. Nor can I adequately judge a horse.) BUT I do find it very necessary that I get a lot of feedback and verbal help/instriuctions about horse behaviour when something does go wrong. My questions need to be answered to be able to learn. And even the questions I do not yet think about because I am so inexperienced need to be answered.



I am not the kind of rider that thinks I am the bomb. :p I am a real clumsy person (I even thought riding would be a disaster since I also have some motoric issues, oops) and I don't care about what others (ego blabla) might think about me and the horse, I am focused on what the horse is doing/thinking and how we can maintain a synergy. Until now the riding goes better then expected, I really thought I was probably gonna be thrown out of the saddle/fall, whatever. :p (maybe this is yet to come when I try to jump :p)
 
#57 ·
I think you think things through and asking questions helps you to sort through all the information. I just hate to see riders that could do well avoid something because of a preconceived notion.

If you are happy where you are at and progressing then you are where you need to be for now. I'd still say keep an open mind and consider revisiting some of the other places ( metaphorically if not actually). You may find that once you've grown comfortable where you are at a challenge will do you good.

I wrote all of that out just to illustrate how different we all can be. Not that you specifically were like any of the mentioned. I dont always realize that not all understand that (G) means a reference to the general population and not anyone person and sometimes I forget to use it when I should.
 
#58 ·
Oh! I didn't know that G meant that. :) There is indeed a lot of information coming towards me... I ordered two books by Warwick Schiller in my local library. Gonna start reading those in my spare time. I know I have still a lot to learn, but I don't think I will ever be a very good equestrian since I have some difficulties judging distances and also have some motoric issues... I can't imagine myself helping a horse by correcting it's movements or even pulling on more then 1 rein. (This is also the reason I do neck reining, it's soft and I can get to learn without annoying the horse by accidentaly pulling too hard) But I do really care for animals, love them and I am willing to look at myself and learn. I always seem to get along really well with animals (for some unknown reasons.) I wil probably never be able to ride a 'difficult' horse, but when I am paired up with a calm confident horse, it works. :) The horse I am paired with now is older, well schooled and kind in nature. When I progress in my riding I want to get group lessons too so I can get to know some other horses and people that like riding. :)
 
#59 ·
First, there are several pages of comments and I'm not going to start reading them so I'll apologize in advance for repeating anyone or for offending anyone who sees things differently.

Second, I should apologize to my riding instructor who was a fabulous equestrian lady (and beautiful....I was 11-14 when I rode for her so I was starting to notice). Not that she'll ever see this (if she's still alive and she might be), but don't imagine she would be too thrilled at some of what I'll say.

I started out riding dressage and spent the first 3 years in saddles that were either dressage seat or jump seat (although I never took to jumping). When I returned to the US at 14 I started doing what I consider to be serious riding (i.e. working in a saddle, nothing to do with an arena, and riding 15-30 mile days or 100 mile weeks at times). I dumped everything that had anything to do with dressage and only retained two things that I was taught. Balance and being comfortable / at ease on a horse. I remember the exercises I had to do while riding around an arena both with and without a saddle (toe touching, sit ups, pushups, rotating 360, all while riding those boring loops LOL). Out side of those two things though, I never used any of the rest. A dressage rider would have a fit with what I went to. Did not sit right, did not have my feet right, did not hold my reins right (ever try to work cattle, actually hunt or do any number of actual working functions while holding a reign in each hand ****).

I'm not saying that dressage is bad. If that is the type of riding someone wants to do then it's great. As a young boy living in Europe it was always thrilling to watch the Lipizzaner stallions at the Spanish Riding School in Vienna.. I wanted to ride like that (who wouldn't as a child or even as an adult in many cases). When I left the world of the arena and rode the roads, passed through forests, pushed cattle or had to bring back ones that got out, the need for dressage vanished (it's next to useless for that sort of riding) an the desire to ride that way vanished with the need. Dressage for me became totally useless and with the exception of two things that I leaned in the first week or two everything else I had learned in 3 years deemed as either unneeded at best, at worst it was useless. e.g. ever try to ride dressage while working with cattle, actually hunting, cutting through miles of forest, etc... while using both hands for the reins? Shoot, I can't even ride a saddle with a dressage seat for more than 2 hours. It feels find for the fist hour or so, but at 3 hours my back is in pain which is a bad thing when you're riding for 7 or more hours that day. Not to mention that the saddle itself will end up causing places on my horse's back to start getting sore by the time we hit about 200 miles (or the end of the second week on a riding trip), but that has to do with the lack of weight displacement for those European style saddles, not with dressage itself and is a totally different issue.

If you like dressage or functions that it's needed for (i.e. doing Dressage show competition, etc....) then do it. If you don't like it then it's not required. I've been riding for 51 years now and the last 48 have not used anything that was part of my dressage training beyond balance. And while balance is vitally important, dressage is not required to learn it or to learn about being comfortable and at ease on a horse. I've known excellent riders who have never learned dressage or even sat a dressage seat saddle.
 
#60 ·
First, there are several pages of comments and I'm not going to start reading them so I'll apologize in advance for repeating anyone or for offending anyone who sees things differently.

Second, I should apologize to my riding instructor who was a fabulous equestrian lady (and beautiful....I was 11-14 when I rode for her so I was starting to notice). Not that she'll ever see this (if she's still alive and she might be), but don't imagine she would be too thrilled at some of what I'll say.

I started out riding dressage and spent the first 3 years in saddles that were either dressage seat or jump seat (although I never took to jumping). When I returned to the US at 14 I started doing what I consider to be serious riding (i.e. working in a saddle, nothing to do with an arena, and riding 15-30 mile days or 100 mile weeks at times). I dumped everything that had anything to do with dressage and only retained two things that I was taught. Balance and being comfortable / at ease on a horse. I remember the exercises I had to do while riding around an arena both with and without a saddle (toe touching, sit ups, pushups, rotating 360, all while riding those boring loops LOL). Out side of those two things though, I never used any of the rest. A dressage rider would have a fit with what I went to. Did not sit right, did not have my feet right, did not hold my reins right (ever try to work cattle, actually hunt or do any number of actual working functions while holding a reign in each hand ****).

I'm not saying that dressage is bad. If that is the type of riding someone wants to do then it's great. As a young boy living in Europe it was always thrilling to watch the Lipizzaner stallions at the Spanish Riding School in Vienna.. I wanted to ride like that (who wouldn't as a child or even as an adult in many cases). When I left the world of the arena and rode the roads, passed through forests, pushed cattle or had to bring back ones that got out, the need for dressage vanished (it's next to useless for that sort of riding) an the desire to ride that way vanished with the need. Dressage for me became totally useless and with the exception of two things that I leaned in the first week or two everything else I had learned in 3 years deemed as either unneeded at best, at worst it was useless. e.g. ever try to ride dressage while working with cattle, actually hunting, cutting through miles of forest, etc... while using both hands for the reins? Shoot, I can't even ride a saddle with a dressage seat for more than 2 hours. It feels find for the fist hour or so, but at 3 hours my back is in pain which is a bad thing when you're riding for 7 or more hours that day. Not to mention that the saddle itself will end up causing places on my horse's back to start getting sore by the time we hit about 200 miles (or the end of the second week on a riding trip), but that has to do with the lack of weight displacement for those European style saddles, not with dressage itself and is a totally different issue.

If you like dressage or functions that it's needed for (i.e. doing Dressage show competition, etc....) then do it. If you don't like it then it's not required. I've been riding for 51 years now and the last 48 have not used anything that was part of my dressage training beyond balance. And while balance is vitally important, dressage is not required to learn it or to learn about being comfortable and at ease on a horse. I've known excellent riders who have never learned dressage or even sat a dressage seat saddle.

Okay, good to know... I ride in a western saddle, that also hurts my butt a lot (but I am really really skinny for a female, this might have to do with it since it is a really expensive saddle and it was made especially to fit the horse so you would think...:p) I found dressage boring when I had to do it. Also ride with one hand (for now I asked my instructor to learn me to ride with two hands and I will switch to one hand when I can ride properly with two because I thought being able to ride with two hands might come in handy when ever steering a horse that has learned to respond to two hands.), the horse has learned to respond to one hand and neck reining. (quarter horse, but not used to work with cattle.) I am fornnow gonna stick with the western saddle and kind of riding I do. When I progress I can try different things and see how that goes. In my country there is no need for working cow horses, so I will probably trail ride, jump or something along those lines when I am a better rider. :)
 
#61 ·
Oh and I also attented the lipizaner shows where their stables are (I was still a kid, I think it was in Slovenia?). This kind of riding doesn't appeal to me at all... Sorry. It never did. I like connection with my horse, exploring (like long rides) and fast running (racing appeals to me...). The rest I will try, but not too thrilled about it though. Maybe this changes when I am a more experienced equestrian.
 
#64 ·
I have to respond to this. That you could think that the riders of the Lippizan stallions do not have a 'connection' with their horses, well, frankly blows my mind. You cannot get that level of control and brilliance without some connection with those horses. Those horses have ONE rider that works with them, and their connection is very deep. Yes, it is very stylized, and may not look 'natural', but there is no way you can get that done without a very strong bond between the rider and his mount.


It's great that you want to have a connection with your horse. I see that you are exploring the whole concept, which is great, but please don't assume that these hard working and performing hroses have no connection with their riders.
 
#62 ·
@its lbs not miles You missed a good discussion between big D and little d.


Jolien group lessons are great for meeting other horse enthusiasts. They also teach you how to handle having others on horses in your space. Kind of like driving - there are rules to the road. Handy to have at least ridden with others to get the feel for how your horse responds and what to expect if there are horses that like to encroach.



As for having trouble judging distances - I have no depth perception, never have. Not some, not little - none. I am also legally blind at this point. I started riding blind as my instructor took my glasses to get me to focus on the horse (in a safe riding area) and how I move with the horse as I have physical limitations as well and needed that to learn balance and to relax. She also took the saddle and bridle. I could have given up and walked out but instead I learned much more than keeping my seat. I learned how to focus and read the animal under me. I avoided using the reins for balance so no bad habit to break later and I learned how to trust myself and the horse I was riding. bsms always reminds us that it is a partnership. While we can all talk around a subject that is what it boils down to - a partnership.



The only thing that limits you (G) is yourself.
 
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#63 ·
@its lbs not miles You missed a good discussion between big D and little d.


Jolien group lessons are great for meeting other horse enthusiasts. They also teach you how to handle having others on horses in your space. Kind of like driving - there are rules to the road. Handy to have at least ridden with others to get the feel for how your horse responds and what to expect if there are horses that like to encroach.



As for having trouble judging distances - I have no depth perception, never have. Not some, not little - none. I am also legally blind at this point. I started riding blind as my instructor took my glasses to get me to focus on the horse (in a safe riding area) and how I move with the horse as I have physical limitations as well and needed that to learn balance and to relax. She also took the saddle and bridle. I could have given up and walked out but instead I learned much more than keeping my seat. I learned how to focus and read the animal under me. I avoided using the reins for balance so no bad habit to break later and I learned how to trust myself and the horse I was riding. bsms always reminds us that it is a partnership. While we can all talk around a subject that is what it boils down to - a partnership.



The only thing that limits you (G) is yourself.

wow, I admire you for still trying... I imagine that isn't easy to do... I also think it's a partnership. In my head I always think: "we are gonna do this". I always thought about my horse in terms of a partner and not me above it as a ruler. I know a lot of people find this 'approach' the wrong way, but if people would do some more efforts to read animals and really communicatie they would see so much more... (Of course I get that you sometimes have to give them some limits like with dogs. Dogs instinctively understand who is the top of the pack (preferably the human to minimize stress in the dogs that cannot roam or control their environment like they would in the wild), but you still have to teach them some stuff. Of course dogs are not prey animals and a horse does not need a dominant leader like a dog does. Dominance doesn't mean nasty btw)



But I do think a good partnership match will not be as easy with any horse. Like all animals they have personalities and I guess some will match better then others. I know one horse in the pasture that I would not ride (yet) as a beginner. :p He is really confident and strong and big and dominant. He is the leader of the whole horse gang. :p :cool: Gangster horse, haha! :) I had to show him that I don't like being pushed. Now he does not push me anymore. :D (luckily haha), when time passes we will read eachother better and better and better. ;) :Angel:
 
#66 ·
The trainer that I worked with for a few years, a ways back, was a student of another trainer, and he a student of one before him. They differ from any other trainer I had previously (or since) seen in that their entire approach is about learning to be aware of the horse's 'thought', and learning to move that thought, and get the thought united with the feet.




This sounds very odd, I'm sure. But, most of ride horses whose thought is on one thing, but whose body is doing something else. For example, a horse that is obediently trotting a circle, but is falling out through the shoulder because his real thought is on getting back to the gate that leads to the barn where his buddies are. His thought and his feet are not united. The rider will find that if she lets his feet go where his thought is, that the whole demeanor of the hosre changes, as he goes , ALL of him, toward the gate. He will perk up and move energetically, and with real purpose. But, then, he is calling the shots.



But, of course, we cannot always let the horse follow HIS thought. So, we work toward swaying his thought to go where we want his feet to also go.



I have watched the older trainer work with horses, and he is a master of inviting and persuading a horse to put this thought wherever the human influences him. It is much harder to do than one would think. But, when I was exposed to this, it was a revolutionary concept. Most of the time, I ride basically just 'making' my horse do what I want, even though I am often moving his body, while his thought drags behind. Having them both together makes your horse more willing to do things, since he is mentally there, too.


Where his thought goes, his feet will follow (unless we interfere).
 
#67 ·
meaning to say I realize that skill & bonding are needed to ride dressage in that level. :) I was just saying I don't like watching those kinds of riding. I like watching race horses, horses that are jumping or doing obstacles and observing horses in a herd in nature (in the wild: documentaries) or in a pasture. Just interacting.
 
#70 ·
As is always the case when horse forum members talk dressage, this is a fascinating discussion. Thank you @Jolien for asking the question.


I can only add my own extremely limited experience with dressage. My own show experience was only as a teen, with the 4-H club (a mostly agricultural youth organization in the US). I'd had roughly 10 years of riding experience prior to that. But in that place and time, lessons were only for rich kids. Through trial and error, I had learned to stay on top through any number of horsey antics. But I rode like a sack of potatoes.


Then, I read an article about dressage in Western Horseman magazine. Nearly all of the information was well over my head. But I applied what I did understand to my riding and showing in western pleasure horse classes. That was to pay attention to my posture, lengthen my stirrups, release the death grip of my thighs on the horse, and sit up more on my tailbone than on my crotch.


The effect was immediate. I began to place and win consistently, eventually being placed in the top ten in my state.


Most of my riding since then has been over trails. I've learned to value a horse who knows better than I where it needs to put its feet and how to carry itself. Not all of them do.


I've done military riding with the US cavalry. That consisted of close order drill, riding in close and loose formation over rugged terrain, rescue drills, as well as weapons demonstrations with carbine, pistol, and saber. The horses tended to know the drill better than the troopers. Though, I noticed that some of the horses, if allowed to, would cut some turns too closely. This would cause trouble in gaining a good position at the target for an accurate saber strike.


Much of my riding has been on hot, green, or problem horses, prompting me to return from time to time to the survival seat of short stirrups, and heavy reliance of a strong grip with the thighs. But, especially after reading the description by @TXhorseman of balanced riding, I've returned to my own understanding of dressage seat. This, to stay more in tune with, rather than fighting with the horse.
 
#72 ·
As is always the case when horse forum members talk dressage, this is a fascinating discussion. Thank you @Jolien for asking the question.


I can only add my own extremely limited experience with dressage. My own show experience was only as a teen, with the 4-H club (a mostly agricultural youth organization in the US). I'd had roughly 10 years of riding experience prior to that. But in that place and time, lessons were only for rich kids. Through trial and error, I had learned to stay on top through any number of horsey antics. But I rode like a sack of potatoes.


Then, I read an article about dressage in Western Horseman magazine. Nearly all of the information was well over my head. But I applied what I did understand to my riding and showing in western pleasure horse classes. That was to pay attention to my posture, lengthen my stirrups, release the death grip of my thighs on the horse, and sit up more on my tailbone than on my crotch.


The effect was immediate. I began to place and win consistently, eventually being placed in the top ten in my state.


Most of my riding since then has been over trails. I've learned to value a horse who knows better than I where it needs to put its feet and how to carry itself. Not all of them do.


I've done military riding with the US cavalry. That consisted of close order drill, riding in close and loose formation over rugged terrain, rescue drills, as well as weapons demonstrations with carbine, pistol, and saber. The horses tended to know the drill better than the troopers. Though, I noticed that some of the horses, if allowed to, would cut some turns too closely. This would cause trouble in gaining a good position at the target for an accurate saber strike.


Much of my riding has been on hot, green, or problem horses, prompting me to return from time to time to the survival seat of short stirrups, and heavy reliance of a strong grip with the thighs. But, especially after reading the description by @TXhorseman of balanced riding, I've returned to my own understanding of dressage seat. This, to stay more in tune with, rather than fighting with the horse.

Okay! :) I learned to sit a certain way (upright, without bending or hollowing my back). I learned not to grip the horse (I only do this unconsciously when I am afraid and my trainer alerts me to it) and the stirrups hang low (my trainer adjusts them...)Most of the time my body is loose and relaxed though. I like animals and their presence makes me calmer. I still have to learn so much though. I mostly go with my gut instincts and move together with the horse (several people have told me that I have a very good seat for a beginner, even when staying in the saddle when we are moving fast.)... And you are right about price... It is expensive to rake riding lessons... Group lessons are cheaper but the quality varies... I pay for private lessons... I decided to cut back on some other expenses to start my long time wanted to do hobby: horseback riding! :)
 
#73 ·
Probably reiterated and restated a bazillion times in this thread, but wanted to add that I find it helpful even if bare basics are worked on and it's so great for horses and riders of any discipline. My mare and I mainly trail ride and we are anything but fancy haha but we occasionally wind down in the indoor arena after a trail ride just to do a few minutes of things like shoulder-ins and travers. I find that it helps me refocus/fine tune my attention on how my horse is moving (and how to communicate what movements I want from her) and for the horse she gets to work/use muscles that she might not be fully engaging while on the trail. Also if you are aware of any physiological weaknesses that predispositions your horse for possible injury, the proper dressage exercises can target those areas for proactive strengthening.

If nothing else, you develop a HUGE sense of appreciation for sheer amount of skill and talent shown by the riders and horses performing upper level dressage movements in competition. It is absolutely sheer harmonious magic.
 
#74 ·
I like and agree with what "Avna" posted. Dressage is a system of gymnasticizing the horse's body just like a trainer would do for an athlete, dancer, etc. Even though nowadays I mostly trail ride, I still school my horse in dressage and take lessons so that my own body is in synch with hers. And I school on the trail as well. If you want control of your horse AND your body AND the two of you together, learn the basics and practice them faithfully. Dressage is the basis for just about every other form of riding. Whether or not adherents of those other disciplines realize it (or will admit to it).
 
#75 ·
I’ve been riding about 9 months now. When I started taking lessons my goal was to just learn the basics and trail ride. Upon arriving at my 3rd barn, after a few lessons, my instructor suggested I start learning Dressage. In short, she expressed that doing so would help to highlight my weaknesses with my riding so that I could actually become a good rider. She was 1000% right and with every lesson something is exposed for me to improve on. This applies wether I’m practicing something I’ve already been taught or learning an entirely new skill. Do Dressage and you will become at the very least a respectable rider.
 
#76 ·
Dressage is what riding horses is. It's a balance sport. We have to be able to sit on a horse without interrupting it's balance. Then we have to be able to sense the horse's balance and help the horse to become more balanced with our own balance. Horses don't gain the balance to run with the rider on by themselves. it's taught. It's why riding young horses feels so unstable, because they not only don't have balance but actively try to throw the rider off balance.

Now just learning to turn your horse with your outside aids, and breaking up with the inside rein will improve your jumping. Pulling on the inside rein will make your horse's outside shoulder fall out, so you actually make turning harder.

Now most people will want to jump a fence before they can even balance on a horse let alone helping the horse to balance. But I get it, it's fun to go fast and what not. It's kinda like having dessert before dinner. Yeah it will make you less hungry for a while, but if you skip ''real food'' each day and consume only sugar you will get sick. Same with jumping fences and doing all the fun stuff. You actually improve less by jumping fences endlessly than if you took the time to learn to turn and balance your horse.

I use to jump fences when I was younger more, and I could jump like 70cm courses. Untill I only did dressage for couple years and when I came back to jumping I could jump meter and meter 10cm right out the gate and do well. When the in between of fence's improved I wasn't destroying my horse's balance anymore, I was giving my own balance to my horse. This allowed me to jump horses no one else could jump. Unbalanced rider's create problems in their horses as well, like refusing fences or falling in our out in turns and lines. Most schoolmaster horses tolarale unbalanced riders better and are generally more numb thats why it is easy to jump a fence, but to do it well is a different story.

Now your horse's health is another reason why dressage is so important. A horse that is hollow on flat will jump hollow over fences. Horse's spine is the first thing to suffer. If a horse isn't carrying it's rider the right way there will be long term damage to a horse's spine. Now if a horse is jumping hollow, and the rider is unbalanced, you can really do some nasty damage on your horse's back. This is why horses usually refuse fences too, it hurts the horse when a rider isn't balanced and adds impact on a horse's back when the back is hollow. Unbalanced rider's also end up kicking and pulling on the reins on accident, which also makes jumping more painful for the horse. All this also makes you horse more numb, lazy horses are a man-made thing. This is why most people bit up because their horse is so numb to their reins.

I could go on for hours why dressage is so important, but I think I'm gonna end it here. Hope you will find the enjoyment in learning dressage.
 
#77 ·
Dressage is what riding horses is....Horses don't gain the balance to run with the rider on by themselves. it's taught. It's why riding young horses feels so unstable, because they not only don't have balance but actively try to throw the rider off balance.

...Pulling on the inside rein will make your horse's outside shoulder fall out, so you actually make turning harder....

....Now your horse's health is another reason why dressage is so important. A horse that is hollow on flat will jump hollow over fences. Horse's spine is the first thing to suffer. If a horse isn't carrying it's rider the right way there will be long term damage to a horse's spine....
A somewhat older thread, but I'll reply. Dressage is NOT what riding horses is. People rode horses long before the theory of dressage was invented, and there are some serious issues with the theory of dressage.

Horses DO learn balance with a rider by themselves, or will if allowed to do so. Just get on a green horse and start riding, in varying terrain and at varying speeds. Don't interfere with the horse and the horse WILL figure out its balance. With you on top. And the horse will figure it out better than you can teach it.

There is a reason why they teach you to give a horse its head when the terrain is very tough and the horse is in danger of falling. Give the horse his head, let HIM handle the calculations, and you are likely to survive. Try to manage the horse, and you are likely to injure both of you. The horse does calculus level balance while we humans barely can add sums. And since a horse can handle the balance in the most extreme conditions, he OBVIOUSLY can do so when everything is simple.

No rein action will MAKE your horse's shoulder do ANYTHING. I've been on a bolting horse with its head pulled to my knee and he didn't turn. Happily, an old cowboy had told me to kick the shoulder in a situation like that because the horse must follow his shoulder. Saved my butt that day! Most days I ride Bandit with very little rein input and he handles turns fine. No horse NEEDS a human to control his motion and no humans KNOW as much about how horses move as the horse does.

Nor is dressage training in any way needed to teach a horse to use his back. A Forward Seat will encourage him to use his back well. ANY riding that isn't abusive of the back will allow the horse to do so. A western saddle with a heavy guy can protect the horse's back enough to prevent hollowing - which is better described as "bracing". 800 lb Bandit used to be ridden on 10-15 mile training runs by a guy who "weighed 265 in his socks, and he wore more than his socks when he rode!" With saddle, 300 lbs on an 800 lb horse (38% body weight!) trying to cover up to 15 miles as fast as he could.

When I got him, Bandit braced his back like an I-beam. I used a Forward Seat and western saddle, and did all trots in two point. It took him a while to learn to trust me with his back. Once he did, his back suppled and he started using it in a flowing motion. He now has a great, flowing canter. No training related to Dressage theory. Slack reins, forward balance. The antithesis of proper dressage riding. No emphasis on "collection" - or "straight" or other parts of the dressage scale.

All he needed was for me to be lighter (and at 185 lbs I was already 80 lbs lighter than his previous life) and use my legs and stirrups to reduce peak impact on his back. Nothing to do with reins. He arrived knowing how to neck rein, so it is one hand and slack. No schooling. Just riding out into the desert.

None of this means dressage is evil or that anyone who likes it should stop. If you and your horse enjoy it, have at it! Please enjoy! But one can ride contrary to what is taught in dressage and have excellent results. And horses have far better balance than any human can teach them. I give you my word: Bandit can turn so fast that I struggle to stay on. He can stop faster than I ever want to stop - if he CHOOSES to stop fast. He can move sideways, up hills, down hills and thread thru dense brush with amazing speed and agility - and look out for me while he does so. He does calculus. He doesn't need my advice.
 
#78 ·
Being in an arena; The only 'distractions' I think it removes is grass & running off with you - because there's a fence, tho they can still run around. A fenced safe area, whether 'arena' or otherwise is a good place to learn/teach the horse to start with. Doesn't need to be flat, but if you're a beginner, that makes it a bit easier.

'Dressage' as others have said, just means 'training' in French. Someone the other day - maybe @bsms said Xenophon, a great ancient Greek horseman & army captain(or general or whatever) invented it - don't know about that one & why did he call it a French word? But it and 'Haute Ecole' was 'invented' originally to train military mounts to be used by soldiers and in war. So there is indeed real purpose to the exercises. Be it behavioural - controlling the horse's body precisely - or physical - building muscles with specific exercises for ease of the work.

So saying, all the good stuff above, I don't 'do' dressage & couldn't think of anything more boring than going round in circles taking pretty steps in an arena, having to micromanage it. And as others have also stated, competition dressage is... rather different to the original principles/purpose. I don't like it personally, it is all so contrived, looks laboured, just looks like Work for both horse & rider, horse's heads cranked in, constant bit pressure, mouths cranked shut around bits... But beauty is definitely in the eye of the beer holder, and many think this is beautiful.

I've had all of 2-3 dressage lessons in my life, about 30 years ago. So I'm not speaking from experience of all the specifics that make up competition dressage, but I am big on riding my horses with my body, having control of their body when needed - I teach them to go 'on the bit'(altho that's generally 'on the halter') and be micro-controlled so that in situations it's necessary(Sidepass to that gate so I can reach the catch, now back 2 steps & over a bit, then pivot on the forehand to go through it while I still keep hold, now back up a few steps & stand there while I secure it. Or bend your body away from that tree so I don't bash my knee, but then keep your body just so, because the other side's tight. Or oops, we can't get through this way & bush is too dense to turn, so you need to back up, 2 steps at that angle, now bring your rump over a couple of steps to back 4 steps that way....) Should that be classed as 'dressage', that the horse can do that?

But I also (highly) value the ability to ride 'on a loose rein' and allow my horses to relax, just enjoy the ride, without having to 'Work' & be micromanaged. I ride mostly on a loose rein, I teach all my horses to enjoy being ridden & relax under the rider, and they can be ridden without tack, or just with a neck rope.

So.... I guess it depends on your interpretation of 'dressage' as to whether 'dressage' has a point, whether it means pretty patterns in an arena, etc.
 
#80 ·
But it and 'Haute Ecole' was 'invented' originally to train military mounts to be used by soldiers and in war.
Actually, it was invented in the 1500s for the nobility in Italy. It then spread to France. Adherents attempted to "sell" it to the military but no one ever found it useful outside of parades. The Russians tried it, as taught by James Fillis. That is where VS Littauer learned it. But when he rode to war in 1914, he discovered:

"I, myself, as an ex-cavalryman who participated in cavalry charges during the First World War and heard many on-the-spot accounts of others, can assure you that the success of an attack does not depend on refinements of equitation but rather on the moment being rightly chosen and on the adequate weight of the charge. The latter is a combination of the number of its swords (in relation to the enemy's strength), its speed, and its determination to win. As to the actual hand-to-hand fighting, which is physical chaos and emotional and mental confusion, riding during it can only be of the most primitive kind."

Indeed, Xenophon also wrote:

". . . but if any of you is disheartened because we have no cavalry while the enemy has a great deal, remember that ten thousand cavalry are nothing more than ten thousand men. For no one yet died in battle from having been bitten or kicked by a horse; it is men who do what is done in battle. We are on a far safer basis than the cavalry; for they cling to their horses in fear not only of us but of falling off, while we, marching along on the ground, shall strike much more strongly if anyone comes against us, and we can more easily hit whatever we want to. Cavalry is superior in one thing only; it is safer for them to run away than it is for us."

For a full account of how it developed, I recommend VS Littauer's The Development of Modern Riding. It can be downloaded for free here:

 
#84 ·
Apart from the Russians, I don't think any military ever seriously attempted to use dressage outside the arena. The biggest problem was that dressage requires a great deal of training. By the 1600s, armies didn't involve a handful of specialized knights on specialized horses. Even in the time of Xenophon, armies involved tens of thousands. And even if one COULD afford to teach 20,000 horses dressage, those horses would start dying in the first battle. It would then take years to train a replacement for the horse!

And battles involving horses are confused, chaotic events:




A Civil War officer said a charge in combat was as much like a gallop as a terrible thunderstorm is like a gentle breeze! And, of course, it is hard to turn a horse the following way (from a dressage manual) while swinging a sword or firing a pistol:

Before every turn or circle the rider should prepare the horse with a half halt and transfer his weight a little to the inside seat bone, in the direction of the movement.

The horse should then be flexed in the same direction. The inside rein should guide the horse into the turn, the rider’s inside leg, close to the girth, causing the horse’s inside hind leg to reach further forward. The outside rein should yield just enough to allow the horse to flex to the inside, while at the same time it restrains the horse from falling out over the outside shoulder. The outside leg should control the quarters....etc, etc.

Dressage is every bit as valid a game to play with horses as my trail riding is. Done properly, both can be enjoyable to the horse. And that is all the justification dressage (or barrel racing, or trail riding, or jumping) needs: Done right, both horse and rider have fun together!

PS: Very low level dressage training was used to teach horses to move in formations. But at its lowest levels, it is virtually indistinguishable from the basic training done forever with horses by people who have never read a book on riding or taken a lesson.
 
#86 ·
I think dressage is an excellent starting point for riding. When I was a kid in Pony Club we did not get dressage instruction. We scoffed at the boring, no-fun monotony of the exercises. Consequently, our club was full of poor riders and we didn't seem to put together that our Eventing focused instructor wasn't really helping. It wasn't until I showed interest in dressage that my open-minded mother sought out a dressage instructor for me--the difference in my riding was palpable. Before, I was a mess. I had no contact, the horse was hollow in the back, the gaits were not even or rhythmical and the result was bad riding and an ugly picture.

After my introduction to dressage my riding improved immensely--I was able to feel a connection with my horse in a sport that I really enjoyed and wanted to excel in, but really hadn't until that point. My horse was feeling so much better too! He became fluid and flexible, he became confident and sure of himself. I was no longer hindering his movement but working with him as a team. This is what I believe Xenophon wished for his military--better unity between each horse and rider by the rider bettering himself as not to hinder the horse.

Dressage is a sport that I take great pride in. Having been one of those kids that never did cheerleading, soccer, softball or the "normal" stuff, it was my niche. To me, you cannot compare trail riding to dressage in regards to application of the aids, collection, roundness of circles etc.--they don't apply to trail riding. It's comparing apples to oranges. Dressage is in a controlled (for the most part ;) ) environment--trail riding most certainly is not. Other than dressage, trail riding is my favorite forms of riding. I believe that it can only help improve your performance as a dressage rider. Taking to the trails bareback will help you develop that independent seat pretty quick!
 
#88 ·
Horses are, by nature, subtle animals. And they seek connection (harmony might be a better word) with their rider. So...Bandit often reads my mind. In context with where we are and what we are doing, he takes patterns in my behavior I'm barely aware of and translates it into action. A slight shift forward in my seat combined with a good patch of trail for a canter may result in a canter before I give a conscious cue - which in MY case, means a kissing sound.

Hollow back? Braced back is a better description, but ANY consistent riding that doesn't hurt the horse's back will result in trust, and trust will result in the horse using his back AS HE ALREADY KNOWS HOW. When 800 lb Bandit carried 300 lbs on long runs, his back was like an I-beam and photos showed he used his front legs independently of his back legs - as if there were two horses, each with two legs. But without a rider, he moved fluidly. And once his back was no longer abused, he began to realize he could use his back as he already knew how without it causing pain.

How horses move, naturally, is a fault in dressage theory. When you walk forward, you shift your equilibrium forward. If you didn't move the other leg forward, you would fall. The leg you move forward catches you and your motion carries you forward of that leg. You would then fall, except you have now brought the first leg forward and it catches you.

You do the same thing in a turn. You displace your equilibrium to one side and then move your leg to catch it. Hence you will turn, not in a circle, but in an octagon (typically). You would feel very awkward you had to turn in a way where your feet drew a circle in the sand. It is harder for the horse because he has four feet. Hence moving "straight" is not natural for the horse any more than it would be for us.

There is also the question of rider skill. A dedicated rider with good natural ability and good instruction can do dressage beautifully and well. But many of us are recreational riders, not professionals riding 8 hours a day. A little humility is in order. I enjoy watching Charlotte Dujardin but I'm a guy in his 60s and my horse is an Arabian-Mustang mix. I don't even know of competent WESTERN instruction where I live, let alone genuinely good dressage instruction! And I sure ain't Charlotte Dujardin!

So for us mortals, I believe it is better to work with the horse's natural balance instead of trying to teach "collection". Cues should be simple and applied one at a time. Stirrups should be used to reduce peak impact pressures on the horse's back, and we riders should learn to accept the lean instead of trying to make the horse stop leaning. We should first learn without sustained contact, or even bitless. Turns should be asked for, and then we ought to let the horse perform them, rather than try to teach someone to control the horse's body as the horse does what he does every day on his own. Our approach to riding should be horse-centric, not rider-centric.
 
#89 ·
You've certainly said a very big truth "without a rider, he moved fluidly." Once a rider is introduced, it is their responsibility to ride in such a way as to help the horse rebalance. Consistent riding that doesn't hurt the horse's back must be taught--the rider themselves must first be balanced. In my opinion, you should be a tactful and balanced enough rider that the horse shouldn't have to lean to compensate for your weight. But it could come down to rider interpretation (and different schools of thought)--a horse/rider combo that you may see as balanced, I may see as unbalanced and vice versa.

If you could explain the how horses move naturally being a fault in dressage theory--I think I would understand your statement better. I'm confused about the straight part--to me a horse moving forward and straight is the most natural thing ever. Part of dressage is taking what horses already do naturally and emphasizing it and doing it with a rider. I'm sure you've seen a horse collect out in pasture, perform an extended trot or flying lead change? And having been a professional rider in the past, I agree with you--collection should not be attempted without proper instruction. There is a reason it's the tip of the training pyramid--it's the last part of the process. You also do not need collection if you're out on the trail.

Dressage in my opinion is very horse-centric. It's all about being light on your aids, fair to your horse, kind. Understanding that if something doesn't go right, it's you as the rider that needs to take the blame and be better in the future. Furthermore, you're never "done" in dressage. You can be an Olympian but you still go to lessons and receive instruction. You never stop learning. Therein lies my dedication to it.
 
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