Does this look safe? - Page 2 - The Horse Forum
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post #11 of 32 Old 10-29-2018, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by jonbailey View Post
Here is an improved high barrier system that provides good protection against accidental cliff falls with a good view over the cliff. I will never get on board any vehicle when a waiver of liability is demanded of me as a paying customer. I would never transport passengers with a waiver requirement out of good conscience. If I couldn't afford insurance, I would not operate such a business.

You obviously have never read the small print at any venue where you rode any ride or people moving equipment...
There is a liability waiver at all places, called protecting your business. Your purchasing a entrance ticket is your acceptance of that liability...

I can't imagine your insurance cost if your business assumed all liability for any injury...it isn't only gross injury but simple things like a small cut, a stubbed toe because someone wore the wrong style of shoe...



Reality and computer generated are very different.
You refer to being on cliff edge then no guardrail system can be in place on cliff edge...
Removed several feet back from a edge, then yes, if you want walls and barriers it can be done...
If you not want to have those headaches, change the terrain or route traveled to afford safer vantage points.
You pick your animals and mode of transportation based on terrain...
Pack trains or mules rode cliffside, not normally stagecoach...they rode the wider ascending and descending mountain trails.
Just in what you describe wanting to do, a stagecoach to me impacts your ability to see the countryside beauty...
I've done part of the Grand Canyon Trail, aka The Bright Angel Trail...
I can't imagine the beauty lost sitting in a stagecoach with small windows, roof and other passengers all moving around trying to see just like you or me...
Then make me wear a seatbelt. not happening!

Now put me on horseback/mule and let my wandering eyes see what they can see...
Cliff edge is spectacular.
I've ridden through The Badlands, Arches, Zion, The Tetons, Yellowstone, Acadia, Petrified Forest, Bryce Canyon are just a few of the National Parks I've been blessed to see and there are a lot more.
There is just no way you could see that beauty from a stagecoach..not like astride.
Maybe a stagecoach ride going through the old gold-mine towns with "working" equipment, a stage depot and the town lodging, saloon and eatery might work better for a adventure.

The famous bank-robbery scene unfolding with you part of it...

Lots of old abandoned mining towns still exist in this country and some are even recreated for tourist attractions in many locations today.
Just a thought...
....
jmo...

The worst day is instantly better when shared with my horse.....
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post #12 of 32 Old 10-29-2018, 09:50 AM
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I think if you want this much safety and aren't comfortable having people sign a waiver of liability, and if you are a customer who is not comfortable riding along after signing said waiver - a stage coach business/excursion is not for you.


Personally, I'm tired of people trying to wrap everything in bubble wrap. I can't stress enough how tired I am of it.
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post #13 of 32 Old 10-29-2018, 12:11 PM
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Look! No seatbelts! :)

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post #14 of 32 Old 10-29-2018, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbailey View Post
This is a PC-simulation model of a stagecoach. The coach offers excursion rides in modern times. Notice the coach is very close to a high cliff: about 50 feet high above the railroad tracks below. The only barrier is an ordinary barbed-wire fence that is used to keep wild animals from gong over the cliff.

If I were a company offering excursion stage rides I might have modern safety features:

1. fence posts along the cliff edge that are steel and are driven deep into the ground with wooden exterior coverings so the psts look like ordinary fence posts to the casual observer: I would have these constructed at my own expense at the person of the property owner my route was situated upon unless I owned the land myself UNLESS you feel it prudent to have a tall brick or stone wall along that dangerous cliff edge instead as a strong safety barrier

2. the passengers and driver would wear seat lap belts: they would be installed on the vehicle

3. there would be a system by which the coach brakes could be applied instantly in an emergency and release the horse team from the vehicle instantly as well: an emergency could be horses that spook out of control: I don't know if horses are stupid enough to run off a cliff, however

My excursion ride outfit would not have releases for people to sign: I would have a good insurance policy for liability and exercise sound safety measures.

What are some thoughts here for companies who offer rides to the public in nostalgic-looking horse-drawn vehicles in modern times in regards to customer safety?

http://i64.tinypic.com/2i0wwk.jpg

Wait a sec.


I just saw what I bolded.


May I inquire as to why, if you don't even know THIS about horses, would you consider trying to run a stage coach excursion outfit?


What I underlined... The emergency brake doesn't shut the horses down. They can and will drag a coach or a wagon until it lays over on it's side.


Having reread everything you posted here, I have serious concerns. IF you put this motion, this seems like an accident looking for a place to happen.

Are you thinking you can set the company up, then rely on people/horsemen who actually know what they're doing? I'm trying to understand the mindset here.

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post #15 of 32 Old 10-29-2018, 01:45 PM
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@AtokaGhosthorse this is a PC simulation. If you go to other threads the OP links some simulations he has put together. They are really interesting but the program to create can be limiting. This isn't a question of limiting programs but the "copy" that goes with in explaination.
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post #16 of 32 Old 10-29-2018, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QtrBel View Post
@AtokaGhosthorse this is a PC simulation. If you go to other threads the OP links some simulations he has put together. They are really interesting but the program to create can be limiting. This isn't a question of limiting programs but the "copy" that goes with in explaination.

Ah. Got it.

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post #17 of 32 Old 10-29-2018, 02:26 PM
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It's a computer simulation. Leave the 'safety features' off. None of the ones you mentioned improve safety. Safety belts in a carriage are more dangerous than being thrown clear. A quick release pin in the wagon tongue is one of those things that will come loose only when it shouldn't-- there's a reason they aren't done outside of movie sets. Brakes can help slow a wagon on a downhill grade to keep it off the horses, but it won't slow a runaway team much at all. A guard rail is worthless unless it's about 8 feet high and solid-- a panicked team will go through or over anything less. Just leave it off-- if this were an actual ride, the guests sign a waiver, the owner of the company makes sure he has the safest teams possible and the most-skilled drivers, and you hope for the best.
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post #18 of 32 Old 10-29-2018, 11:11 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dreamcatcher Arabians View Post
You'd get laughed out of town for any of this stuff. A release of liability is a no brainer, the insurance co would insist you have one. As the various walls and such......no. The driver is a good enough driver to avoid going off the cliff, most horses wouldn't jump off the edge.
I therefore cannot run a business if any insurance carrier is going to insist upon releases. It would violate my conscience. Waivers are an indication to me that the business has no regard for my life and limb. Riding on a stagecoach for fun in 2018 should not involve the same level of danger as skiing, scuba diving, auto racing, river rafting or rock climbing.
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post #19 of 32 Old 10-29-2018, 11:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbailey View Post
I therefore cannot run a business if any insurance carrier is going to insist upon releases. It would violate my conscience. Waivers are an indication to me that the business has no regard for my life and limb. Riding on a stagecoach for fun in 2018 should not involve the same level of danger as skiing, scuba diving, auto racing, river rafting or rock climbing.
It actually can be considerably more dangerous. All those things you bring up don't involve an animal who is normally a prey animal being under someone else's control and then having the liver & lights scared out of it. When that happens, you need a release that says you're not liable unless you can prove the operator was grossly negligent.

I don't let anyone in my pasture with my horses, even though I KNOW they won't do anything stupid (the horses that is) unless a human does something stupid first but ..... if something scares one or startles one enough, anything can and does happen. My insurance co had me provide them with my release and then had me go over it with their underwriters and attorneys to tweak it so that it met all of my state's criteria. It doesn't mean I don't care and won't look out for my clients (if I let them get killed off though not caring, I'm not going to be very successful) and won't protect them with everything I can do to make sure everyone is safe, it just means that they understand that anything to do with horses is high risk and unless I am grossly negligent, I am not liable for an injury. I don't allow anyone to even handle one of my horses unless they're wearing a helmet, doesn't mean I don't still need a release.

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post #20 of 32 Old 10-29-2018, 11:47 PM
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Any horseback riding business makes you sign a waiver. It doesn't mean they don't care about your life and limb, it means horses are big animals that can sometimes do stupid things. AND they don't know what kind of stupid things you might do either!



I knew a lady that ran a horseback riding business years ago. She told me they only got sued once......it was a guy that couldn't mount the horse and fell back off before he even made it on. I'm sure the waiver helped them out in that instance.


I wouldn't think twice about signing a waiver riding a stagecoach. I guess because I did that all the time when I used to ride rental horses.



But hey, if this is only a computer simulation, why are we worried about waivers?
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