Can I ride Western in English tack? - Page 4 - The Horse Forum
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post #31 of 52 Old 06-02-2017, 12:46 AM
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perhaps, seeing the end product desired, what judges look for, might explain some of that warm up by Al Dunning, or maybe not.

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post #32 of 52 Old 06-02-2017, 12:56 AM
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yes. I only trail ride. but, in everything I have learned, such snapping on the reins, . . such pulling the horse behind the vertical, such riding is not helpful to developing a balanced, responsive and happy horse. I cannot help finding myself grinding my teeth when I watch that sort of 'training'. I don't see it as purposeful or helpful to developing the horse. you can see the the horse is unhappy about it, and ends up being all tied up and shut down. the horse is not brought TO the bit, but over it, dumping him on his forehand.. if that is what it takes to compete, it's a good thing I don't .
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post #33 of 52 Old 06-02-2017, 01:32 AM
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Look, I said that I am not defending everything that Dana is doing, but to suggest the end product, as seen in the video above of Al Dunning, shows ahorse on his forehand, would make it impossible to work that cow
I also did not post that snapping video, but one just showing that indeed western horses learn contact in their training process, pure and simple
I guess I could google forever and try to find what I mean by using contact correctly, to teach eventual ability to be ridden on aloose rein, one handed, in all kinds of athletic movement, but I know someone is going to focus on some negative aspects that some trainers use, versus my intended message-that a western horse, trained so he eventually can be ridden one handed on a loose rein, while he carries himself in frame, without bit support, DOES IN the beginning, get ridden, using contact
Perhaps my message got lost in those videos, as I was not pushing any training methods, merely showing that contact is used as part of the progressive training towards no contact
Now, if anyone can tell me, how you would ride a western horse from day one, without any bit contact, and have him learn correct transitions, cadenced gaits, , etc, ect, I;m all ears
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post #34 of 52 Old 06-02-2017, 01:42 AM
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oKay,here is your favorite trainer, Tiny, and note how he gets the horse behind the vertical also during that training for collection and uses contact

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post #35 of 52 Old 06-02-2017, 01:55 AM
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thank you for posting that. so considerate of you.

yes, I do like Warwick Schiller, and that you cannot see the difference between his use of the rein, and that other lady's, is very surprising to me.
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post #36 of 52 Old 06-02-2017, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seg2k17 View Post
...I was wondering if it was possible to ride in a Western position (grip with legs, stretch legs out.. as well as loosen up the reins) in an English saddle?...

Would I look dumb riding in a Western seat position in an English saddle, or is it not as noticeable as if it were the opposite? I wouldn't be competing, just riding around my house and trail riding...
It is entirely possible to ride using an English saddle and a western approach to reins, at least at the "just riding around my house and trail riding" stage. English jump saddle and sidepull halter or western curb bit will work fine.

Not sure what grip with legs suggests, but stretching legs out could just mean using a long leg. Which is often done in English riding. When I used a English jump saddle, I used a long leg and just got sweat on my jeans. But I'll caution the OP: SOME English saddles use a finer, softer leather as an outer covering, and that may not mix with jeans. My Bated Caprilli CC saddle had very durable leather, so it wasn't an issue.

This was a pretty typical picture of me riding Mia in my DownUnder Master Campdraft saddle:




To my rump, it FELT like my Bates Caprilli AP saddle, which was wider and distributed weight over a larger area of the horse's back than my CC saddle did. A little slack and direct reining with fingers worked fine. Don't use it often any more, but still own and like the saddle.

But I'll add a warning, because Australian saddles seem to be a love/hate type of saddle. My wife and daughter LOATHE this saddle, while I rode many happy miles in it. I tried a "dressage position" in it, a "jump position" in it, and an "old west cowboy" position in it:



As long as I moved with my horse, my fussy Arabian mare didn't mind which 'position' I used. Most of our trail rides looked like this, which I don't think is particularly 'western' or 'English':



Around where I live, I've had more raised eyebrows at my wearing a helmet than I had about using an Australian-style saddle. I sometimes used the Aussie-style saddle when taking western group lessons...and the instructor liked the saddle. But my daughter never has:


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post #37 of 52 Old 06-02-2017, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Smilie View Post
...BSMS,you said once that you don't care about good lope transitions, correct leads, but many do,so perhaps until you try some more advanced riding, how in the heck can you critique?Don;t post some military stuff, as I am taking of a western horse, performing high level activities one handed,and on aloose rein...

...How well do you think your horse would stay on a cow, just moving like he would riding down a trial, hind end not engaged, on his front end?


Engaged hind end? In Western Pleasure?

But I'll feel free to reject any riding which involves not allowing the horse to look where he is going. And I'll feel free to reject any riding that involves intimidating the horse with a bit, or teaching a horse to AVOID contact. One of Bandit's first lessons on coming to me was learning that taking the slack out of the reins did NOT mean 'emergency stop'. He needed to learn to accept contact, not avoid it.

I suspect Bandit HAS worked cattle before, as have both Cowboy and Trooper. I know for certainty he has herded sheep, as has Trooper. He shifts weight to his rear just fine when it makes sense to do so, to include walk to canter transitions. He also shifts weight to the rear just fine climbing up a hill or out of a wash - because it makes sense to do so. In fact, studies have shown all horses trotting up a 10 degree hill use a 50:50 balance. It is just what a horse does.

Riding is not "advanced" just because it takes extra training to get there, or because it is praised in shows. Nor is it "western" if it rejects all the fundamentals of how a horse needs to move in the open. "How to Have a Great Headset on Your Horse without Gimmicks" has nothing to do with the way I see horses being ridden in the west. The ranch horses I've met, and the ex-ranch horses I own, know NOTHING about having "a Great Headset". They do know how to look where they are going, size up what they will need to do, and do it.

And no one who trains a horse to ride 'nose-to-toes' is welcome on my horses. YMMV.
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post #38 of 52 Old 06-02-2017, 01:18 PM
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@Smilie I understand that you are saying that the effortless, no contact way of riding that shows the best of Western style riding, starts out with teaching the horse via considerable contact.
my 'beef' is that to say that what you posted is "contact" is incorrect. that may be how some folks train contact, but not all, not even all Western riders train that way. it is that form of rein use that I find objectionable, not that contact IS used.

I also understand and agree with what you said about the horse 'demanding' a release, verses waiting for when YOU give it. we all know that when the release is given is how anything is taught to a horse. that is why releasing the rein when the hrose has tucked down and back, as in the Dana horse, teaches the hrose to evade the bit by dumping over it's poll onto its forehand. and, snapping the reins repeatedly is just abuse. there IS NO release, just a mindless on and off that the horse will not associate with any fine tuned communication, but will rather tuck under and just endure the 'noise'.
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post #39 of 52 Old 06-02-2017, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by tinyliny View Post
thank you for posting that. so considerate of you.

yes, I do like Warwick Schiller, and that you cannot see the difference between his use of the rein, and that other lady's, is very surprising to me.
Again, Tiny, I just posted a video to show western horses are trained with contact, so no confused when contact is used
I just happened to pick two training videos at random.
You are the one that then googled and found that video, with Dana, using technique that I also do not agree with, same as I don't agree on using backing to teach collection.
We all take from whatever clinician what works for us, what we feel comfortable using.
It is a fact, that people showing in ANY upper level discipline, are going to use some methods that you or I would not use, where we show or just ride
I mean,I don't fence a horse, to help teach a stop, but then again, I am not trying to perfect a sliding stop, teach a horse not to try and 'cheat in the run down
Of course I can see degrees of difference, and you are also comparing someone just training ahorse and people training horses to be competitive at the upper end, in their discipline
Using anything to win, can be another entire topic, and we can go into that also, as I have never injected hocks to push a young horse to the max, have never had tails blocked, have never shown horses on drugs, not even mares on regulmate
I admit to never having show at World level, but like to think, even then I would not be tempted to do something that \everyone does' in order to maximize chance of winning

This topic was on whether a western horse can be ridden with contact, even though he is now ridden on a loose rein, as a more finished horse, without being confused, showing bit Resistance when contact is used, throwing head, and the answer is yes, that horse understands contact , and I for one don't believe anyone can train a horse totally on a loose rein from day one
I posted shiller, as even he gets a horse behind the vertical, head low, training a concept, but that does not mean how that horse is ridden. It is a training method
If we wish to discus trainers, lets put that on the training board, as I believe old Clinton can take a break for the limelight
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post #40 of 52 Old 06-02-2017, 01:55 PM
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Perhaps, I should have just posted some of my own examples, far as a western horse able to understand and accept light contact, having been originally trained useing contact

Charlie, ridden by afriend, when I was getting over knee replacements



Charlie leased one summer, to another friend, who rode her English




My Einstein, just relaxing, warming up English



Charlie, crossing a river, head just where she feels it needs to be




Charlie, finding her own best way down this bank




Einstein, just on atrail ride


Here I am riding Charlie with some contact, western, during atraining session



Does not mean I don't get the following, just riding out, and perhaps a more 'broke' ride also, should I need it.



It is kind of disappointing that the entire purpose of those posts were over shadowed by people feeling they needed to critique the training instead, while I I wanted to show, was that a well trained western horse has a foundation suing bit contact, can go back to it, even once he is ridden one handed and on aloose rein, giving to that bit, versus throwing head in resistence
I was not holding Dana on a pedestal trying to prove she is a trainer without compare, so why google to show her using technique that I myself do not like, when it has absolutely nothing to do with whether western horses understand and can accept contact?
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