Legs coming up - The Horse Forum
 13Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 21 Old 08-22-2019, 03:22 AM Thread Starter
Foal
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 112
• Horses: 0
Legs coming up

I’ve now come to the point that I’ll be riding in preliminary tests where there’ll be a lot of canter but I am now find a way to reduce the effort needed to keep him going. I tried riding a beginner horse where it’s easier to canter without stirrups, however my feet can no longer touch the side of the horse so now I am learning to use my calves to put pressure on him. She said riders use spurs so that the spur can touch the side when needed and use my calves to squeeze. The beginner horse is not so sensitive to my whip so it’s still ok, with the other horse he will kick his hind legs to the side whenever I tap him. My coach tell me that he is just bullying me and ask me to ignore it and keep going otherwise he know even if I tap him and he kick out I will stop, now when I ride in canter I use my heels to give cues rather than my calves thus it’s coming up and mess up my position, but just using my calves to squeeze is not enough because these school horses are pretty numb, although tapping him can remind him but he always kick out his with his hind leg and that’s a no no in competition. Should I ride with spurs now and make him more responsive to leg cues without him kicking out? It will help a lot if I can ride with longer stirrups length and use my calves.
ongket31 is offline  
post #2 of 21 Old 08-22-2019, 05:56 AM
Started
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Plano, Texas
Posts: 1,675
• Horses: 0
I have found very few horses need the effort most riders put into cuing. The more the rider learns to relax (release all unnecessary tension in his or her body), the more the horse will release tension in its body. Then, the horse becomes more sensitive and responds to lighter cues. This is even true of lesson horses that are ridden by various people using different forms of cuing. It is simply a matter of developing a relationship with the horse and a mutually understood means of communication.

Some people can speak one language when communicating with one person and another language when communicating with another. Similarly, horses can communicate with one rider in ways that differ when with another rider.

Many things come into play in such communication: posture, movement, balance, pressure, etc. When everything works together, a light but firm pressure given with the inner portion of the legs Ė calves on up Ė can easily replace spurs or crops as cuing devices with almost any horse. Such cues should be momentary. A subsequent release serves as a reward telling the horse its response was correct. Once the horse responds, the action of the rider following the horseís movement indicates that this movement should continue. The rider can easily re-cue if he or she senses the horse is about to change the movement on its own.
bsms likes this.

Training riders and horses to work in harmony.
www.quietriding.com
www.quietriding.org
TXhorseman is offline  
post #3 of 21 Old 08-22-2019, 06:23 AM Thread Starter
Foal
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 112
• Horses: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by TXhorseman View Post
I have found very few horses need the effort most riders put into cuing. The more the rider learns to relax (release all unnecessary tension in his or her body), the more the horse will release tension in its body. Then, the horse becomes more sensitive and responds to lighter cues. This is even true of lesson horses that are ridden by various people using different forms of cuing. It is simply a matter of developing a relationship with the horse and a mutually understood means of communication.

Some people can speak one language when communicating with one person and another language when communicating with another. Similarly, horses can communicate with one rider in ways that differ when with another rider.

Many things come into play in such communication: posture, movement, balance, pressure, etc. When everything works together, a light but firm pressure given with the inner portion of the legs – calves on up – can easily replace spurs or crops as cuing devices with almost any horse. Such cues should be momentary. A subsequent release serves as a reward telling the horse its response was correct. Once the horse responds, the action of the rider following the horse’s movement indicates that this movement should continue. The rider can easily re-cue if he or she senses the horse is about to change the movement on its own.
I find it hard to cue for trot/canter just by squeezing him with my calves, so what I always try to do is to squeeze first, if he doesn’t listen then I’ll give him a tap just to remind him. But he always overreact with the whip, it’s fine for normal training session but not in competition. He always try to kick out even with my coach riding him, somehow with him you have to use a lot of leg to keep him going, now I just want to not use my leg too much. I still have to discuss with my coach to see what to do next.
ongket31 is offline  
post #4 of 21 Old 08-22-2019, 06:34 AM Thread Starter
Foal
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 112
• Horses: 0
This is me riding him just few weeks ago which is a disaster. https://youtu.be/jGLOQecD4Dg
ongket31 is offline  
post #5 of 21 Old 08-22-2019, 09:27 AM
Started
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Plano, Texas
Posts: 1,675
• Horses: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by ongket31 View Post
I find it hard to cue for trot/canter just by squeezing him with my calves, so what I always try to do is to squeeze first, if he doesnít listen then Iíll give him a tap just to remind him. But he always overreact with the whip, itís fine for normal training session but not in competition. He always try to kick out even with my coach riding him, somehow with him you have to use a lot of leg to keep him going, now I just want to not use my leg too much. I still have to discuss with my coach to see what to do next.
Squeezing followed by use of a whip is a common practice and can be effective. There are alternatives, however -- even without first developing a better relationship and communication with the horse as I mentioned in my previous post.

When someone doesn't understand a particular word you use, you should try using a slightly different word to see if the person understands that -- such as "stroll" instead of "saunter". You can make similar adjustments in cuing to find out what the horse might understand. You could try using a slightly different portion of you legs. You might tap the legs rather than squeezing. You can try applying your legs slightly forward or back of where you are trying now. You could try rubbing your legs with or without a squeeze. Once the horse responds, you can use that "word" to help the horse understand the other "word".

The same idea can be applied to the use of a whip. It is generally agreed that the whip should be applied slightly behind the leg. Some horses, however, might respond better if the whip is applied elsewhere -- maybe even the shoulder. A whip can be applied in different ways as well as in different places.

And don't forget verbal cues. If a horse was taught to lunge using verbal cues, using a verbal cue along with a physical cue can help the horse learn to eventually respond to the physical cue alone.

Along with these ideas, you should think about what else you may be doing when applying a cue you think the horse should respond to. How are you balanced? How are you breathing? What is your attitude? A horse may often respond to something the rider isn't conscious of.
bsms and Woodhaven like this.

Training riders and horses to work in harmony.
www.quietriding.com
www.quietriding.org
TXhorseman is offline  
post #6 of 21 Old 08-22-2019, 09:38 AM
Started
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Plano, Texas
Posts: 1,675
• Horses: 0
The main thing I noticed in you video is your stiffness and your almost straight arms. These cause your hands to move as you do the rising trot. With bent arms and flexible shoulder and elbow joints, your hands could remain more still as your torso moves. This would help the horse become less tense.

Releasing unnecessary tension in your body would allow your body to follow the movements of your horse better in the canter as well.

It also looked as though you were kicking the horse at ever stride in the trot. A horse can find this very annoying. Although the horse may trot, its movements would be tense.

Training riders and horses to work in harmony.
www.quietriding.com
www.quietriding.org
TXhorseman is offline  
post #7 of 21 Old 08-22-2019, 10:15 AM Thread Starter
Foal
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 112
• Horses: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by TXhorseman View Post
The main thing I noticed in you video is your stiffness and your almost straight arms. These cause your hands to move as you do the rising trot. With bent arms and flexible shoulder and elbow joints, your hands could remain more still as your torso moves. This would help the horse become less tense.

Releasing unnecessary tension in your body would allow your body to follow the movements of your horse better in the canter as well.

It also looked as though you were kicking the horse at ever stride in the trot. A horse can find this very annoying. Although the horse may trot, its movements would be tense.
I noticed that as well, I think I’m just too worried that he will slow down, he need so much leg to keep going though, even my coach have to remind him very often. Tapping him with my whip is not something I want to do in competition because if he kick out I’ll loose marks, somehow I have to fix this. I’m still trying to follow his movement in canter because he is very bumpy, I try to soften my body and legs drop down but my heels can no longer touch his side, I use my heels more and that’s what causing my legs rise up. My coach will ask me to canter in two point seat so I won’t interfere the balance of the horse, still need to nudge him pretty often to keep him going. What I’m thinking now is if he doesn’t respond to my leg cue just by squeezing with my calves and tapping him will kick out, what I can make him listen to me since my heels are off his side already? I am really keen on trying out with very dull spurs so if he doesn’t respond I can give it a nudge, so he don’t kick out and I can keep him going without so much effort, I do find it very tiring just to keep him going.
ongket31 is offline  
post #8 of 21 Old 08-22-2019, 10:37 AM
Showing
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: southern Arizona
Posts: 11,863
• Horses: 4
Lesson horses have a tough life. They sometimes bully people because they in turn are bullied BY people. Not intentionally, of course. But because a riding lesson is all about the RIDER learning while the horse's feelings or opinions are irrelevant. "Ask, Tell, DEMAND!" is frequently taught, and if you aren't willing to DEMAND then "The horse has your number" or "He's bullying you!"

One of my three is an ex-lesson horse. 5 years later, if you try to ride him in an arena, he'll buck, run and fight. Take him out on a trail and he is a very sane, cheerful horse. Maybe the safest horse we have.

Even so, when I took lessons (for 3-4 months), there was only one horse who needed to be ridden with a whip, and you only needed it once a ride to convince him.

Here is how it looks to me. You want to be able to use your heels every stride. You are "behind the horse" and using grip with the knee instead of letting your weight flow past your knees and into the stirrups. I suspect part of the reason you need to kick every stride is that you are putting too much pressure on the reins, effectively riding the brakes while pushing on the gas pedal. Your hands are not moving with the horse's mouth. You look like you are working hard at the canter - a gait that needs you to flow so your horse can flow under you.

I'm mostly a western rider, but I'd recommend giving the horse some slack - or going bitless. Too much hand, particularly since the hands are out of synch with the horse. Stop riding without stirrups and pry your knees apart, if need be, so your weight can flow past your knees and into your stirrups. OR learn to use more seat and less knee. The horse isn't bullying you. He's frustrated.

Yes, I'd lower the stirrups.

Quote:
What I failed to realize back then was that by ramping up the intensity of my leg pressure, for example, while I did get the result of him moving away from it, I had obtained the result I wanted with a substantially negative byproduct. Yes, he moved off my kicking leg, but the sharpness of my kicks had made him more nervous and anxious. Now I had to deal with a more reactive horse, which meant very often I would feel the need for stronger rein contact to control the nervousness that I had actually created. As I used stronger rein contact, the horse got even more nervous, and the downward training spiral had begun. What I was doing was forcing the move away response rather than teaching the move away response...

-----------------------------------------------------------------

"So, how should I have obtained the response? He didn't listen to my light leg pressure. Why shouldn't I use more if he fails to respond? Well, because of what I just said. Harder and harder pressure makes him more nervous. The way to get him to move is not to bang on his sides, but to 'pester' him until he moves.

I have never read any book about riding that talks about 'pestering' a horse. They always use the terms like 'Apply the aids,' as if the horse will magically understand what the heck that means.

But think. Why does a horse swish his tail at a fly? Because the horse knows the fly will bite him if he doesn't get rid of the **** thing. The horse is not terrified by the fly. The fly isn't an attacking mountain lion. It isn't even a stinging wasp. It's a fly. Even an annoying fly will get a horse to respond, but it is not a panicked response.

In a way, we riders need to be mildly annoying flies..." - Denny Emerson, Know Better to Do Better, Mistakes I Made With Horses (So You Don't Have To)
You might also consider Common Sense Horsemanship.

Disclosure: I'm a backyard rider of backyard horses. We ride on trails and rarely in the arena. I don't teach (no one would ask me to) and I don't show or compete. I'd never win an equitation contest. Probably be thrown out. From yesterday's ride - a very different world than yours. If I've been offensive (or grossly irrelevant), I apologize now.


Riders ask "How?" Horsemen ask "Why?"
bsms is offline  
post #9 of 21 Old 08-22-2019, 11:17 AM Thread Starter
Foal
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 112
• Horses: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsms View Post
Lesson horses have a tough life. They sometimes bully people because they in turn are bullied BY people. Not intentionally, of course. But because a riding lesson is all about the RIDER learning while the horse's feelings or opinions are irrelevant. "Ask, Tell, DEMAND!" is frequently taught, and if you aren't willing to DEMAND then "The horse has your number" or "He's bullying you!"

One of my three is an ex-lesson horse. 5 years later, if you try to ride him in an arena, he'll buck, run and fight. Take him out on a trail and he is a very sane, cheerful horse. Maybe the safest horse we have.

Even so, when I took lessons (for 3-4 months), there was only one horse who needed to be ridden with a whip, and you only needed it once a ride to convince him.

Here is how it looks to me. You want to be able to use your heels every stride. You are "behind the horse" and using grip with the knee instead of letting your weight flow past your knees and into the stirrups. I suspect part of the reason you need to kick every stride is that you are putting too much pressure on the reins, effectively riding the brakes while pushing on the gas pedal. Your hands are not moving with the horse's mouth. You look like you are working hard at the canter - a gait that needs you to flow so your horse can flow under you.

I'm mostly a western rider, but I'd recommend giving the horse some slack - or going bitless. Too much hand, particularly since the hands are out of synch with the horse. Stop riding without stirrups and pry your knees apart, if need be, so your weight can flow past your knees and into your stirrups. OR learn to use more seat and less knee. The horse isn't bullying you. He's frustrated.

Yes, I'd lower the stirrups.



You might also consider Common Sense Horsemanship.

Disclosure: I'm a backyard rider of backyard horses. We ride on trails and rarely in the arena. I don't teach (no one would ask me to) and I don't show or compete. I'd never win an equitation contest. Probably be thrown out. From yesterday's ride - a very different world than yours. If I've been offensive (or grossly irrelevant), I apologize now.

Usually I won't pull the reins so tight, sometimes it's almost all the way to the buckle, but my coach ask me to ride with contact so that I can get him on the bit and lower his neck, once he lower his neck then I will give him more rein. I can ride with longer stirrups and put more weight on the stirrups but there's just no way my heels can touch his side, I can only squeeze with my calves, use seat aid or rein only. I asked my coach before and she mentioned spurs. The real problem is if I ride with long stirrups and just use my seat aid, rein and calves to squeeze, it's just not enough no get him going, that's when I give him a little tap then he kick out and move forward. I have not ridden him for more than a year when he acted weird when he is cantering right, he acted like one of his leg is in pain and lift his leg. I don't know if it was my problem but my coach tell me he just bullying the rider because she rode him afterwards and he did the same thing. Before this I don't dare to whip him as well because he will kick out, now my coach just ask me to prepare myself when I use my whip because he will kick out anyway, so I just brace myself and keep on going. What I felt is he can do what I want him do, just without precision.
ongket31 is offline  
post #10 of 21 Old 08-22-2019, 11:33 AM
Showing
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: southern Arizona
Posts: 11,863
• Horses: 4
I live and ride in a very different world. Cowboy, our horse who is an ex-lesson horse, panics if you try to ride him in an arena. Just too many bad memories - even 5 years later. As a student rider, I doubt there is much you CAN do to improve the horse's desire. Bandit and I cantering a couple of years ago:


Neither of us, obviously, are big on head lowering. It is a very small "arena" so cantering is a continuous circle. On a trail he stretches out more. Maybe someone who is closer to your world of riding can offer better suggestions. In the video, he looked to me like he'd be a fun horse to ride...but if one needs lots of heel and/or spurs to keep the horse going forward...

Good luck. Hope someone else can give you better advice.

Riders ask "How?" Horsemen ask "Why?"
bsms is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the The Horse Forum forums, you must first register.

Already have a Horse Forum account?
Members are allowed only one account per person at the Horse Forum, so if you've made an account here in the past you'll need to continue using that account. Please do not create a new account or you may lose access to the Horse Forum. If you need help recovering your existing account, please Contact Us. We'll be glad to help!

New to the Horse Forum?
Please choose a username you will be satisfied with using for the duration of your membership at the Horse Forum. We do not change members' usernames upon request because that would make it difficult for everyone to keep track of who is who on the forum. For that reason, please do not incorporate your horse's name into your username so that you are not stuck with a username related to a horse you may no longer have some day, or use any other username you may no longer identify with or care for in the future.



User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome