over tightened nose bands - Page 3 - The Horse Forum
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post #21 of 29 Old 02-19-2012, 07:34 PM
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seems like this is backwards,
Judges stop giving points for actions caused by cruel devices. Paying lip service that you are against it, but not changing the scoring that leads to the devices is straight up hypocracey,
Sounds like all the TWH shows that claim to be against soring but judges encourage people to do it anyway by the way they judge.
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post #22 of 29 Old 02-19-2012, 07:42 PM
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Joe, it is difficult to deduct points in a dressage test for an overtight noseband. From a distance, you can't tell how tight it is. Unless the horse is showing clear resistance, in which case marks can be taken for resistance to the movement, and in the collectives for submission, the judge must score as they would with a horse in a loose noseband.

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post #23 of 29 Old 02-19-2012, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Kayty View Post
Joe, it is difficult to deduct points in a dressage test for an overtight noseband. From a distance, you can't tell how tight it is. Unless the horse is showing clear resistance, in which case marks can be taken for resistance to the movement, and in the collectives for submission, the judge must score as they would with a horse in a loose noseband.
While what you say is true, Joe's point is valid at least when it comes to the US Equestrian Federation's dressage rules. A horse with its tongue hanging out is going to get penalized, sometimes severely, under the submission portion of the collective marks. Why? I haven't a clue. I know there are horses that let their tongue out when they are happy and relaxed. But don't let the judge see that, so we have to clamp the jaw shut.

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DR116 2. Submission does not mean subordination, but an obedience revealing its presence by a constant attention, willingness and confidence in the whole behavior of the horse as well as by the harmony, lightness and ease it is displaying in the execution of the different movements. The degree of the submission is also demonstrated by the way the horse accepts the bit, with an elastic contact and a supple poll. Resistance to or evasion of the rider’s hand, being either “above the bit” or “behind the bit” demonstrate lack of submission. The main contact with the horse’s mouth must be through the snaffle bit.
a. Putting out the tongue, keeping it above the bit or drawing it up altogether, as well as grinding the teeth or agitation of the tail, are mostly signs of nervousness, tension or resistance on the part of the horse and must be taken into account by the judges in their marks for every movement concerned, as well as in the collective mark for “submission”.
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post #24 of 29 Old 02-19-2012, 08:13 PM
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While what you say is true, Joe's point is valid at least when it comes to the US Equestrian Federation's dressage rules. A horse with its tongue hanging out is going to get penalized, sometimes severely, under the submission portion of the collective marks. Why? I haven't a clue. I know there are horses that let their tongue out when they are happy and relaxed. But don't let the judge see that, so we have to clamp the jaw shut.
Which is exactly what I said, is it not?
Marks get deducted for resistance in each movement. Whether that be the tongue hanging out, griding teeth etc.

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post #25 of 29 Old 02-19-2012, 08:15 PM
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Which is exactly what I said, is it not?
Marks get deducted for resistance in each movement. Whether that be the tongue hanging out, griding teeth etc.
The tongue hanging out is not necessarily an indication of resistance. But because the book says it is, some people make sure it can't come out hell or high water.
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post #26 of 29 Old 02-19-2012, 08:31 PM
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If you dont want to encourage people to use the nosebands, stop deducting points for things that the nose bands correct. You miss understood my point. I didnt mean to say anything about specific points for the nose bands.

Take the TN walker show world, they fall over themselves to say they are against soring, ( basically using chemicals, chains, and other irritants around the horses feet to make him hurt and exaggerate a gait.)
but then they award points for how well a horse does something that is specifically caused by soring.
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post #27 of 29 Old 02-19-2012, 08:37 PM
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99% of tongues hanging out are caused by some kind of resistance. Whether it be because the horse is not being ridden straight, and the poll is twisted so the tongue comes out the side, or the rider is heavy handed... Few horses will drop the tongue out unless there is a problem. Hence, points are deducted. How would you judge, if a horse with it's tongue hanging out was acceptable? Is the judge meant to overlook this obvious symptom of tension?
Just like teeth grinding. I have a friend who's horse grinds its teeth constantly when there is a bit in his mouth. There is nothing physically wrong with him, the bit is fine etc. Even on a loose rein, he will grind his teeth. It is a habit. And yes, he gets marked down for it in a dressage test.
So, do we now expect the judge to stop marking down any horse that grinds its teeth, because ONE horse out there, does it as a habit and not resistance? Who cares about the other 99% that are grinding with resistance and tension?
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post #28 of 29 Old 02-19-2012, 08:46 PM
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Kayty, I never thought about it that way but you make some good points! My horse's tongue kind of bulges off to one side sometimes so you can just see it off to one side between her lips on the side of her mouth, is that her resisting? just wondering :)

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post #29 of 29 Old 02-19-2012, 08:59 PM
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That depends jumper, I couldn't tell you if it is resistance just from a description. If she is not moving straight, and over her back into a consistant contact, there is a good chance it is either resistance, tension or a symptom of crookedness. Most horses will show some crookedness, it may show as the tongue coming out one side of the mouth, a tilt or twist of the poll, a short stepping hind leg etc. Often these symptoms will be combined, and even more often, they are not picked up by someone other than a good, experienced pair of eyes on the ground that is clued in enough to pick up these subtle signs.

This is why these types of rules are difficult. There is no clear cut yes or no answer in the introduction of these 'blanket' rules. Simililar to the proposed blood rule that was in the media recently, the FEI trying to allow some blood to be evident on a horse at the time of competition. How on earth was that meant to be policed? How much blood can be present? Is it allowed to be flowing? How sore is too sore for the horse to be allowed to continue competing?
Dressage has so many variables as it is, to introduced more of these kinds of rules is going to turn it into an impossibly complicated sport.
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