Rollkur....Please elaborate - Page 4 - The Horse Forum
 20Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #31 of 87 Old 01-18-2012, 06:53 AM
Trained
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 8,193
• Horses: 3
Dressage does not teach headset. Rolkur does not teach headset.
It is not about head set.
We do not 'yank and crank' the horse's head into its chest, and then hope for the best by kicking the hind legs up until we have some sort of 'pretty' pony club frame.
mildot likes this.

~Horse & Hound Artistry~.

Website: www.horseandhoundartistry.com
Kayty is offline  
post #32 of 87 Old 01-18-2012, 06:53 AM
Trained
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Riga, Latvia
Posts: 5,800
• Horses: 1
Here's rolkur explained -


The video is a bit flashy, but explains the basics well. It is not acceptable as any means of training at all!

I have come a long way, to surrender my shadow to the shadow of my horse.
/James Wright/
Saranda is offline  
post #33 of 87 Old 01-18-2012, 07:01 AM
Trained
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 8,193
• Horses: 3
Nope I don't think its acceptable - not only for the physical demands on the horse, but also because one of the fundamental parts of dressage is that we ride a horse up into the bridle, into a light hand, and that the hand should never come backwards.

However - if you don't understand exactly what rolkur is, please don't run around screaming 'rolkur rolkur, horse abuser!' at someone who is riding their horse a little deep for a few strides, by softening the neck rather than hauling backwards. There is a difference.

~Horse & Hound Artistry~.

Website: www.horseandhoundartistry.com
Kayty is offline  
post #34 of 87 Old 01-18-2012, 07:13 AM
Trained
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Germany- but not German =D
Posts: 5,155
• Horses: 2
Rollkur.. I don't understand much about it, all I ever heard before was

Warm up rings- whether they were used
Abuse- towards the animal
Hyperflexion- overbending, linked possibly to abuse?
Dressage- only ever heard it being used in dressage, but then never bothered looking in to it.

I am pretty sure, if I am not mistaken I saw a picture of a dressage rider warming up in a rollkur and they were, media wise, battered for it. I'll try and find it. Interesting read though.
DuffyDuck is offline  
post #35 of 87 Old 01-18-2012, 07:17 AM
Trained
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 8,193
• Horses: 3
Yeah that'd probably be Anky, Sophie, she 'started' the whole rolkur hoo-hah in the first place I believe, but using it in public. Or the blue tongue incident with Patrick Kittel and Scandic.

Scandic, blue tongue 'incident'

~Horse & Hound Artistry~.

Website: www.horseandhoundartistry.com
Kayty is offline  
post #36 of 87 Old 01-18-2012, 07:23 AM
Trained
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Germany- but not German =D
Posts: 5,155
• Horses: 2
http://midwestnha.files.wordpress.co...quine-back.jpg

I found this quite interesting... the picture that is.

And as you are all aware I am a big dressage fan, and this is in no way a hit to dressage riders, at all, I just found the picture comical.

http://blog.nerdette.org/images/rollkur_eng.jpg

I have to say, if you just google pictures rollkur... it doesn't bring up very pretty pictures at all :( Makes me quite sad, actually, that people riding in these are looking for a short cut to something, with correct riding and muscle build up, could come quite easily.

I found this diagram very useful.. you can see the WRONG bend, and snake like shape of the bones in the neck -shudder-
Attached Images
File Type: jpg rolkur.jpg (20.8 KB, 397 views)
DuffyDuck is offline  
post #37 of 87 Old 01-18-2012, 07:25 AM
Trained
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Germany- but not German =D
Posts: 5,155
• Horses: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayty View Post
Yeah that'd probably be Anky, Sophie, she 'started' the whole rolkur hoo-hah in the first place I believe, but using it in public. Or the blue tongue incident with Patrick Kittel and Scandic.

Scandic, blue tongue 'incident'
Scandic blue tongue uncut - YouTube

Also Edward Gal.. or was so when I googled pics then and you're right, thats the bit I remember.. the poor horse's tongue I'd multiply those, but don't want to be done for scamming.

I'm not going to say right and wrongs right now, in work and cant really look anything up... but is it a piece of equipment DESIGNED to hyperflex the horse that unnaturally, or is it being used incorrectly (ie when spurs make a horse's side bleed, but that was never the correct design use for them)
DuffyDuck is offline  
post #38 of 87 Old 01-18-2012, 07:26 AM
Trained
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Germany- but not German =D
Posts: 5,155
• Horses: 2
Apologies, just realised that last pic is SUPER tiny, http://horseandman.com/wp-content/up...4.58.41-PM.png

That is the link for a clearer explanation.
DuffyDuck is offline  
post #39 of 87 Old 01-18-2012, 07:40 AM
Trained
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 8,193
• Horses: 3
On Edward Gal for a moment now that you mention him - I have seem two sides. Yes, I've seen the video's of him employing rolkur as a training technique, I've seen the photo's of his horses's heads cranked to their chests in draw reins with spurs strongly engaged, but I've also seen him ride amazingly kindly, so quiet, such beautiful, soft, un-interfering hands and a sensational seat.
He was in Australia for a Masterclass at the end of 2011 - and there we again, saw the soft, kind, sympathetic, brilliantly effective side of Edwards Gal's riding, along with partner Hans Peter Minderhoud who was also a stunningly sympathetic rider, with a strong focus on developing very solid basics.

That said, we've also had Anky do a Masterclass here about 8 years ago, and she too, was wonderfully sympathetic and really pushed the 'happy athlete'. Didn't see a single amount of rolkur produced at any time. Her partner Sjef, was an incredibly friendly, down to earth individual that was willing to take time out of their very busy schedule to talk to anyone who wanted to discuss any training issues with him. He would sit down and talk through everything.

Ulla was the one Australia kicked out and told to never come back. We had horses literally wrecked after clinics with her. One become so distressed, that it bolted straight into the side of the indoor arena, flipped over the side and sustained massive injuries as well as severe neurological complications that took years of dedication and patient training to settle.

~Horse & Hound Artistry~.

Website: www.horseandhoundartistry.com
Kayty is offline  
post #40 of 87 Old 01-18-2012, 09:52 AM
Trained
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: In the saddle.
Posts: 5,184
• Horses: 1
Actually, Baucher is the original person that came up with rolkur.. a "classical dressage" trainer no doubt.
Sjef is the trainer that got the trend started again in the Netherlands. So those who train or trained with him are the ones that were using it. Edward Gal left Sjef in his Toto days.

Actual rolkur, where the head is pulled right up to the neck, the neck shortened and compression and pinching of the spine is liable to happen is not really productive, imo. However, and far too often, a horse being ridden deep is called "rolkur" when it isn't. Riding a horse deep is necessary at some point. Whether its long and low with a young horse, deep after a moment of collection on an upper level horse or riding in a very round frame for "neck control" (Dr. Caeser Parra's words) while schooling it is not rolkur. Having a horse deep, coming into the contact and stretching his neck out to the bit with a giving hand and driving leg, regardless of the position of the head relative to the vertical, is not rolkur. If you can ride a horse very collected one moment and the next, without lengthening the rein, the horse can become very round and deep and really be stretching into the contact it means you have connection, you have a horse going forward from behind and the horse has truly softened the underside of the neck while lifting at the base.
My horse does not soften well longitudinally so I end up in a long and low, deep stretching or "over round" frame a lot to help him to build strength in the back and neck as these frames don't allow him to brace with the underside of the neck and encourage him to be more supple.

There was a great article in DT last year about Dr. Parra's "neck control"... its not rolkur, just riding towards a soft horse. Nothing ****es me off like people calling a deep frame rolkur. It makes you look stupid.
Posted via Mobile Device
Kayty and DraftXDressage like this.
~*~anebel~*~ is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the The Horse Forum forums, you must first register.

Already have a Horse Forum account?
Members are allowed only one account per person at the Horse Forum, so if you've made an account here in the past you'll need to continue using that account. Please do not create a new account or you may lose access to the Horse Forum. If you need help recovering your existing account, please Contact Us. We'll be glad to help!

New to the Horse Forum?
Please choose a username you will be satisfied with using for the duration of your membership at the Horse Forum. We do not change members' usernames upon request because that would make it difficult for everyone to keep track of who is who on the forum. For that reason, please do not incorporate your horse's name into your username so that you are not stuck with a username related to a horse you may no longer have some day, or use any other username you may no longer identify with or care for in the future.



User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Old Thread Warning
This thread is more than 90 days old. When a thread is this old, it is often better to start a new thread rather than post to it. However, If you feel you have something of value to add to this particular thread, you can do so by checking the box below before submitting your post.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Does Edward Gal really use Rollkur? xXEquestrianBalletXx Dressage 21 02-05-2011 05:08 PM
What is Rollkur? JackofDiamonds English Riding 9 09-09-2010 01:07 AM
Rollkur sorelhorse Horse Training 23 06-23-2010 02:09 PM
Rollkur lexxwolfen Horse Training 86 12-30-2009 03:05 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome