COVID-19 - different containment approaches around the world - Page 21 - The Horse Forum
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post #201 of 976 Old 03-12-2020, 06:45 PM Thread Starter
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This is not a rumor, but there is not enough medical testing to back the current theory here in Europe:

This virus is being easily spread by children. Not ONLY children, of course, but children have been seen to have the mildest forms of presentation (no fever or very low fever, mild cough or none at all). Therefore, there may be hundreds of children who are shedding the virus, yet these cases go undetected and can easily effect the adults, and especially seniors, around them.

This is the supposed thought behind closing schools here: not to keep our children from becoming infected, but to keep them from being unknowing carriers, infecting older populations.

For those of you in areas where numbers of infected persons are growing, make sure your children completely understand what is happening and stress the importance of washing hands, etc.
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post #202 of 976 Old 03-12-2020, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by RegalCharm View Post
It was on the news that the virus can live 3 days on surfaces.
Pft! 2 hours or 3 days... same same isn't it?? (Sarcasm)
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post #203 of 976 Old 03-12-2020, 07:05 PM Thread Starter
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@SueC , your article reminds me of the 'dumbing-down' theory, which I do not believe we have ever discussed. Can't find the paper now, but IQ scores had been growing 3 points per generation since the beginning of the 20th century, then stopped in the 1970s to start dropping 7 points per generation since 1975. Lots of theories there...


Have you read this paper in The Lancet, written by doctors in Wuhan (so certain data may have been reported with bias)?: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...566-3/fulltext The most interesting point contributed by this article is that the viral shedding of Covid19 lasts a mean of 20 days in survivors, yet continues until death in non-survivors (up to 37 days). That is a whopping increase over regular influenza (5-10 days), and should be considered in quarantine protocols, yet I hear no discussion about this finding.
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post #204 of 976 Old 03-12-2020, 07:20 PM
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The 'dumbing down' is certainly a thing.... good grief, it makes you wonder how some people can find their feet to put on their socks in the morning. Extrapolating data and reasoning are also seemingly skills that are being lost.
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post #205 of 976 Old 03-12-2020, 07:24 PM
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We've had a steep rise in cases from 24 yesterday to 60 today, including our first in-country transmission.

It was announced that we're banning all gatherings of more than 500 people to free up our emergency services, to keep them healthy, as well as to prevent the possibility of further spread in the population.

Schools will remain open for now but i know that they're preparing for when they're told to close, as it may be until our summer holidays in June. It's thought that there's a higher risk of passing it on to relatives if children visit friends and their homes than if they're in school.

People with very mild symptoms are to assume that it could be the virus and self-isolate for 7 days. Sick Leave pay is to be given from the first day off. If their symptoms deteriorate, they've to phone our NHS phoneline or information helpline; and their details may be passed to local protection teams who test on a secure hospital site, a drive-through site or at home.

Other than washing my hands more often it hadn't affected my routine, now I've changed plans to meet-up with friends at local restaurants and events, I'm shopping for my elderly mum and I'm planning in case we have to self-isolate.

It's been affecting my job for a few weeks as i often work with people from abroad and school children. However, after having to deal with a sneezing french school boy and snotty, snuffling gentleman with a cough from Washington, I'm more than happy to say enough and take a step back. I can't afford to be ill or to transfer it to my mum and other sick and/or elderly people in my life.

Last edited by Caledonian; 03-12-2020 at 07:32 PM.
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post #206 of 976 Old 03-12-2020, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Spanish Rider View Post
@SueC , your article reminds me of the 'dumbing-down' theory, which I do not believe we have ever discussed. Can't find the paper now, but IQ scores had been growing 3 points per generation since the beginning of the 20th century, then stopped in the 1970s to start dropping 7 points per generation since 1975. Lots of theories there...

Have you read this paper in The Lancet, written by doctors in Wuhan (so certain data may have been reported with bias)?: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...566-3/fulltext The most interesting point contributed by this article is that the viral shedding of Covid19 lasts a mean of 20 days in survivors, yet continues until death in non-survivors (up to 37 days). That is a whopping increase over regular influenza (5-10 days), and should be considered in quarantine protocols, yet I hear no discussion about this finding.
That's interesting, @Spanish Rider - I guess the people who don't survive it are shedding longer because their immune systems haven't managed to contain the virus and remove it from the bloodstream etc. I expect that similar things happen with people dying of flu - that the concentration of virus stays skyhigh and therefore they shed till they die.

A guest we had last week is an ED nurse who had a long rotation through a closed, full biosecurity infectious diseases unit at a specialist hospital in Singapore which handles all the really virulent stuff from all over SE Asia - things like suspected Ebola, SARS etc. She is working in the Australian health system now and was telling us the hospitals she's seen here are fairly clueless how to contain stuff like this, and that the lack of policy around serious new viruses was a joke. COVID-19 is one thing, but it's playschool compared to something like Ebola, and one of these days we're going to get something really nasty, which will wipe a lot of people out - orders of magnitude more than COVID-19.

Having said that, I do agree with @gottatrot that if humans won't limit their own populations to a sustainable and reasonable level, nature will do it for us - as it has done across the board for millions of years - we've just been getting away with it lately, but I don't expect us to get away with it for much longer (ecosystem collapse will certainly do it if infectious diseases and wars don't - because sadly, humans, while they do have brains and could theoretically live harmoniously and avoid a lot of these problems, don't use their brains consistently and are generally too self-interested, too tunnel-visioned and too short-term in their thinking).

That's interesting about the IQ trends. Of course, IQ tests are largely a cultural construct of the white middle class, and scores depend on education and training, not just innate ability across certain types of maths and logic valued by this section of culture, so I'd say part of the reason for the initial growth in IQ points was that (Western) education through those years was reaching more people, and more effectively. The dumbing down part I would expect to partially correlate with the dumbing down of education in the past few decades (chicken or egg or something else?) - it's become less challenging - in the past 20 years here in Western Australia, students are arriving in university with less and less advanced knowledge in mathematics, language, logic etc, and university courses have been watered down in turn because of it. Other factors behind the IQ drop may well include genetics (with less responsible people tending to have a large accidental brood etc - and the documented drop in fertility amongst the most highly educated), and environmental factors like too much screen time and not enough imagination, outdoors and hands-on in childhood anymore, and the continued decline in decent nutrition and physical fitness in the West in recent decades...

SueC is time travelling.

Last edited by SueC; 03-12-2020 at 07:48 PM.
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post #207 of 976 Old 03-12-2020, 07:54 PM
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First case one county over. Yet another person who came back from a cruise.
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post #208 of 976 Old 03-12-2020, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by SueC View Post
if humans won't limit their own populations to a sustainable and reasonable level, nature will do it for us - as it has done across the board for millions of years - we've just been getting away with it lately, but I don't expect us to get away with it for much longer (ecosystem collapse will certainly do it if infectious diseases and wars don't
Unfortunately we are destroying the whole planet in the process, of which there could be no 'coming back' from...

Quote:
dumbing down of education in the past few decades (chicken or egg or something else?) - it's become less challenging - in the past 20 years here in Western Australia, students are arriving in university with less and less advanced knowledge in mathematics, language, logic etc,
My kids used to be great at maths & loved it in primary school. Then in high school they both told me they were surprised that they were doing grade 4 type stuff, because that's all the other kids were up to. First year at this school, my eldest would ask the teacher to explain something only to be told 'just use a calculator, you don't need to understand it'(!!!) Then last year, Darcy said class played up for the teacher so badly that they couldn't concentrate, and she was too busy coping(& crying or walking out) to actually give any instruction/help. But I had many communications & meetings with the teacher to try to overcome & combat that, I thought all good - she told me Darcy was top in the class, no issues... until end of year report said they were UP TO Yr 9 level... at the END of Yr 9(!!)... turns out, what she meant was, Darcy was doing well *in comparison to the rest of the class*. As they wanted to do Maths Methods(what used to be Maths A, highest option) this year and Jess in Yr 9 this year, hating maths & telling me she was stupid at it... I have been paying a tutor(a pretty penny) for private maths lessons for both of them, because the school is failing so dismally.

And in other classes, I hear assignments & tests get constantly reviewed & maybe dropped completely, to bring it down to a level that the majority of kids will manage/bother with. Many kids do extremely little of anything(if they're at school at all) and there is no discipline, they don't even seem to keep kids down these days if they don't/can't do the work. So there are kids in Yr 10 that can't even do their times tables...

And as you mention language & logic... My kids learned Japanese at primary school & were excited that this school offered Japanese, they were both really keen. But it's an elective subject that the kids(if chosen at all when they select their electives), get to do for only one term per year! They both started it & Darcy requested to be able to do it for 2 elective subjects the following year, so they'd have half the year of it at least. The teacher was really happy for this to happen, but the school wouldn't allow it. So, seeing as they'd pretty much forgotten what they learned 3 terms ago by then, Darcy decided it was basically a waste of time to do it at all

When we started at the school, I was stoked to see that one of the electives offered was Philosophy. I was thinking lots of critical thinking, logic.... Apparently they've done a lot on religions & how illogical they are... which was upsetting to Darcy's best mate & another Christian student, who were laughed at & picked on, made to feel stupid(I reported this to both the teacher & the principal but got no reply). They've also discussed euthanasia, gay marriage & some other interesting topics, but sadly, there seems to be little if any 'critical thinking' & 'logic' taught. Let alone respect for different people's beliefs...

They don't teach anything to do with the environment "Because kids aren't interested in that" and while I loaned the doco film '2040' to the English teacher, who was excited to show it to her class, they apparently watched a quarter of it & turned it off, because the kids said it was boring...

Pardon the rant!
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post #209 of 976 Old 03-12-2020, 09:26 PM
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That sounds dreadful, @loosie , and very much like the country middle school I attended in the 1980s, where I spent most of my time twiddling my thumbs, and eventually bringing my own books to read when I'd finished classwork in 10 minutes. The senior school I moved to up in Perth for Year 11/12 was really super, and finally I was learning things and being stretched, with all tertiary entrance subjects and a comparatively high level of expectation for academic students back then.

As a teacher I saw both types of schools, and avoided working at the no-learn schools, because it's pointless having a specialist education teaching at schools like this, you just need bouncers and fulltime psychologists if the school culture is that bad. And it is usually the school culture, and that usually is created by the support or lack thereof of teachers by the middle and upper management, in things like being allowed to have high learning and behaviour standards - although academically selective schools, of course, have the pro-learning culture there already courtesy of their students (I spent a while teaching at Sydney Girls, and most of those kids were Asian-Australians, completely different work ethic and like teaching at university back in the pre-dilution days, which I did before teaching high school).

When you had a good management team, you could be at a low socioeconomic school and yet have a wonderful learning culture. It's good to see that this is still happening today:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-...chers/12041718

I've had the pleasure of working in a couple of schools like this, both in the state and Catholic systems. It's just such a shame that the Sodom-and-Gomorrah schools tend to stay like that for decades, because managements usually have permanent positions, unlike classroom teachers who are these days mostly on year contracts. And the worst thing is when a previously great school is turned into a horrible school by people like that, as happened to one of my favourite schools to teach at as a young teacher - it went from an excellent school with a great atmosphere and top achievement to one where there was rampant violence and really no curriculum learning going on at all... and it's still like that... and unfortunately, it was tipping more and more like that with many of the state schools in particular, so it was getting harder over the years to find the good schools to teach at!

I'm sorry your school sucks. If you can't find one that doesn't, teach your kids to self-educate, and if they're in rough classrooms, perhaps negotiate with the teacher that they are allowed to do an independent study programme in the school library, where it's quiet and no shenanigans are going on - it would be a better use of their time...

Re the state of the planet, I hear you - it's a crying shame that humans are taking so much else out with them. And while what we're doing will potentially set the planet back to primordial slime stage, something new would eventually evolve - the sun is only halfway through its life span yet. It wouldn't be the same, of course, and it's a crying shame, but it would be something...
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post #210 of 976 Old 03-12-2020, 09:47 PM
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Well, my province has banned large gatherings of people and word around the office is tommorow they are going to be sending us home for a couple weeks. My job can be done 100% remote, so no worries there.
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