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post #51 of 72 Old 01-03-2019, 01:06 AM
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Ok this relationship sounds totally messed up! I don't really blame your fiancé for being upset! Cancel the marriage for your sake as well as his!! Marriage was created by God and designed to be one man and one woman pledged to each other till death do them part. Those who want to be joined without Christ may as well just shack up. Not have one man pay the bills while you sleep around with another. I've seen enough wrecked relationships that result from people being unable to commit to one another. It pains me to see that innocent children usually suffer the most... children that were unplanned and aborted... abused... emotionally unstable... all because of the careless choices of adults. I know there aren't any kids involved here... yet... as far as I know... but for the sake of all involved DON'T marry the guy. If you can't commit then don't. Get help. I know I'll probably get bashed but I'm 100% old fashioned and in todays society that is unacceptable. I wish you the best.
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post #52 of 72 Old 01-03-2019, 01:33 AM
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IMO one can't change what another person fundamentally is. Your fiancé (aka roommate) has a pattern of verbally expressing his anger/frustration and you have a pattern of cringing from verbal expressions of anger/frustration. Would suggest that if he is not having sex, and you are, he is frustrated. Maybe instead of trying to change him you should find him a chick...

Sounds like you two are incompatible on a basic level. Not sure couple therapy is the way to go.

IMO you need to find a different place to stay as you two really aren't compatible even as just roommates.

I would not suggest you move in with guy #2 either. Seems like you have a pattern of jumping from guy to guy. IMO you need to live alone for a year at least and get intensive therapy to help you cope with your over-reactions.

The world can't change just to suit you. You can only change you, not anyone else. Some people yell, some people don't. Just the way some people are wired.

I can't make a judgement over the internet, with second-hand information, on determining if your roommate is acting in a verbally abusive manor or not. He might be, or he might not. But if you don't like his behavior and can't deal with it, then you should leave and get professional help.

You have to have a coping strategy to deal with those who yell. What happens if a boss yells at you? You can't just dissolve into a puddle. You must learn different patterns of behavior. If you don't, IMO all your relationships (single or multiple) are doomed to failure.

Not sure why you posted on a horse forum; do you even ride? Horses can be really great therapy...


PS - I speak from personal experience. Learning to stand still and refuse to cower from angry people is empowering...
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post #53 of 72 Old 01-03-2019, 01:42 AM
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I have been married to the most wonderful man for 41 years in April, and since I met him I have NEVER ever looked or thought about any one else, and either has he. I can't understand why you could ever 'love' any other man if you truly loved your partner. I don't wonder that he is this way when he knows about the other man, most men wouldn't be happy about it either.
You should not marry your partner until you sort out who your own life and sort out what you really want out of life, and remember that there are only TWO people in a marriage!!!
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post #54 of 72 Old 01-03-2019, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mythilus View Post
Small background info, been with my partner 5 1/2 years, engaged for 1 year. I am 25, he is 33.


With our approaching wedding, I am starting to seriously think about my fiance and my relationship. He is, for the most part, a wonderful, kind, caring man. He helped me through my toughest time and helped me cope with PTSD and depression.
However, there are a few problems that I am finding harder and harder to deal with. For one, when he is frustrated with something, he will snap at me if I say something to him, or go to hug/kiss. "What do you want!" or, "Bad timing!" being some examples. He gets unnecessarily aggro at things. Another thing which is happening more and more often, is that if we are trying to talk through a difficult situation or problem, and I don't understand, instead of trying to explain his thoughts a different way, he decides that I'm "just not listening". He used to be very good at changing his words to help me understand, but he just...doesn't anymore. Also, despite him knowing everything about my troubled childhood and the behaviour I developed thus, he still continues to do things he knows triggers me; e.g. slamming his hands on the table and standing up abruptly, raising his voice and taking on an angry demeanour. I understand people get angry, but to me, anger always lead to me getting hit, so I find it threatening, and when I am triggered I basically curl up into the fetal position on the bed and wait for the abuse to come. He has NEVER hit me, or even come close to hitting me, but is it too much to ask that when he is angry, he just leaves the room til he calms down rather than reacting a way he knows will upset me?
I love him very much but I do not believe in "love conquers all" and I don't want to end up divorcing him over issues that I could have fixed or avoided before we get married. I also don't want to go into marriage thinking we will overcome these things when we can't/won't. Not to mention, because of my childhood, I want to raise my own future children with the kind of father that doesn't get aggressive. I want them to be raised with an experience that cements "violence is not the answer". I want to be married for the rest of my life, and I want to be happy in that marriage.
On top of all that, I have zero sex drive and he still somehow believes that means I don't find him attractive, despite my reassurances and even my doctor saying, 'sadly that's just how she is'.
I don't know who to talk to and I can't afford to see a relationship therapist.


There is also another man I am in love with, and I am polyamorous, and firmly believe you can love many people sexually, emotionally, etc. so it doesn't bother me that I have found love with another as well. My partner knows and supports me and my relationship with this man. My issue with this second person is that we have only admitted love for each other for about a month, and he seems as perfect as my fiance was when we first got together. I know nobody is perfect, but having a loving, caring, listener who can discuss difficult topics without getting upset or aggro is making it harder to see what is best for myself. I've spent my life making other people happy and I just want to do whats best for myself for a change. I need unbiased opinions on my honest admission.


TL;DR


Fiance knowingly triggers my PTSD and although he is otherwise perfect I feel like I can't get over this trait.
Sometimes people try to convince us that changing who they are/what they do/how they act is hard, but it's not. There are some things you can't help--like your sex drive or your past of abuse. These are reactions that happen deep inside us and if you want to change those, you've got to go trough some heavy therapy. You should want to overcome these triggers, but the time and effort (and money) it takes, is so very much more drastic than it is for him to take notice when he's becoming angry, and making a choice about how he's going to express it. I grew up with a father who had a clear anger management problem but I remember, somehow, it changed from him slamming doors and pushing chairs, to walking away and calming down. He never hit us and never threw stuff at us, but even if you don't get abused, you imagine yourself as being the chair. And he knew it, so he did something. We can always do something when we know our actions are scaring our children or our significant others, because we should care enough about how we make them feel instead of satisfying short term anger expression by breaking things or being loud. This is how children deal with frustration, not an adult. And if he cant see it for himself, and you have to tell him very plainly how it makes you feel, and he still does not value your feelings enough to make a change, I think it's very clear what your answer is. You're right: this will be a problem down the road and is it worth it, to stick it out? When you know there are people out there who would listen to you when you share your concerns and drop behaviors that hurt you?


The paradox about it all is that you know that love and attraction is not tangible. We can build many strong relationships, friendship or otherwise, with so many people. And yet you're in the same boat as so many people who are willing to enter a marriage when it's clear it may not go well, because they feel a sense of obligation to endure . There should be no enduring in a loving relationship; you should never feel like you have to ignore or suffer through actions that hurt you, for the sake of marriage. You don't need marriage to be happy, don't you know it already? And that should be on both sides. As much as he does things that hurt you, don't you think your actions with the other man are hurting him as well? Is your fiancé polyamorous? Does he at least share your sensibilities? I could not imagine expecting a person who is very monogamous to be ok with their partner being with someone else... that's just mean.
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post #55 of 72 Old 01-03-2019, 03:33 PM
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The whole polyamorous thing aside, you don't have any romantic/sexual feelings for the man you're planning to marry. That in itself should be a big red flag of NO.


Seems to me you're only with him because he's supporting you financially. To be honest, that would make me cranky and yell a lot, too. You're using him plain and simple, and that's all sorts of wrong. Stop using your past abuse as an excuse for why you don't feel romantically toward this guy anymore. You certainly aren't 'afraid' enough to stop letting him support you and pay your bills.


If you want to be with the other guy, be with him and stop stringing along the first one. Good relationships, (poly, monogamous, or otherwise) are built on TRUST, and the first guy certainly can't trust you if you tell him you love him but don't show him in any way, shape or form.

You want the truth? You can't HANDLE the truth!
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post #56 of 72 Old 01-03-2019, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mythilus View Post
SueC, thank you so much for your thought provoking post. Another round of questions to answer;


Whinnie:
I have to admit I am confused how someone can be polyamorous with zero sex drive. Am I not understanding some definitions here?
Polyamoury doesn't have to be about sexual intimacy, it can be emotional, or sexual, or both. That said, I have a sex drive for my other partner..

This tells you what you need to know. Do not get married to your fiance. You are setting yourself AND him up for heartbreak.

Open relationships are hard to maintain and generally end up being 'roommates' moreso than spouses. Or they are strictly staying married because neither partner is sexually-attracted to the other anymore, divorce is too expensive, one financially supports the other, etc. I have one friend who married a man who later came out to her as gay. They have two high-school-age sons. She left for awhile, but when it came down to it, she still loved him and they got along wonderfully and are soulmates in every other way. They are technically still married and live in a duplex and they put a large door in between the two. She has one side, he has the other. His long-time partner now lives with him and they are all friends. She is dating a widower who has been friends with them both for years. They have a wonderful relationship but it took a lot of work and understanding on both parts. I would say most open relationships end up falling apart. In your situation, you're in love with someone else and he's footing the bill. Once he finds someone who loves him and only him, he'll leave so fast you won't know what happened. Get out now. Get a job and support yourself.

You aren't married yet and your relationship is deteriorating. That's a red flag. This is as good as it gets. You both will be hurt when you end this, but it's far worse to end it later down the road.
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Last edited by SilverMaple; 01-03-2019 at 05:24 PM.
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post #57 of 72 Old 01-03-2019, 06:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Northerngal View Post
Marriage was created by God and designed to be one man and one woman pledged to each other till death do them part. Those who want to be joined without Christ may as well just shack up.
That bit is offensive & so wrong to me. It should start with 'in my personal opinion...' remember that while there may be many christians here, that's not all of us.
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post #58 of 72 Old 01-03-2019, 10:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pennywise View Post
Sometimes people try to convince us that changing who they are/what they do/how they act is hard, but it's not. There are some things you can't help--like your sex drive or your past of abuse. These are reactions that happen deep inside us and if you want to change those, you've got to go trough some heavy therapy. You should want to overcome these triggers, but the time and effort (and money) it takes, is so very much more drastic than it is for him to take notice when he's becoming angry, and making a choice about how he's going to express it. I grew up with a father who had a clear anger management problem but I remember, somehow, it changed from him slamming doors and pushing chairs, to walking away and calming down. He never hit us and never threw stuff at us, but even if you don't get abused, you imagine yourself as being the chair. And he knew it, so he did something. We can always do something when we know our actions are scaring our children or our significant others, because we should care enough about how we make them feel instead of satisfying short term anger expression by breaking things or being loud. This is how children deal with frustration, not an adult. And if he cant see it for himself, and you have to tell him very plainly how it makes you feel, and he still does not value your feelings enough to make a change, I think it's very clear what your answer is. You're right: this will be a problem down the road and is it worth it, to stick it out? When you know there are people out there who would listen to you when you share your concerns and drop behaviors that hurt you?

The paradox about it all is that you know that love and attraction is not tangible. We can build many strong relationships, friendship or otherwise, with so many people. And yet you're in the same boat as so many people who are willing to enter a marriage when it's clear it may not go well, because they feel a sense of obligation to endure . There should be no enduring in a loving relationship; you should never feel like you have to ignore or suffer through actions that hurt you, for the sake of marriage. You don't need marriage to be happy, don't you know it already? And that should be on both sides. As much as he does things that hurt you, don't you think your actions with the other man are hurting him as well? Is your fiancé polyamorous? Does he at least share your sensibilities? I could not imagine expecting a person who is very monogamous to be ok with their partner being with someone else... that's just mean.
Such an excellent, thoughtful post, @pennywise .

As to your question at the end, here was a PS from the OP from a few pages in:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mythilus View Post
Aubie says:
This guy is being made out to be some sort of abuser. And If I missed something in the original post, correct me. But I didn't see where he had a side piece. Or that the OP met him in some sort of open relationship setting.
This is my bad for leaving out an important detail. When we got together, we agreed to be polyamorous. We agreed monogamy wasn't for us. He has had a few side ladies over the years that didn't stick around for various reasons.
i.e. not monogamous either, not just in word, but in deed. I don't know if the OP has had previous sides as well while in this relationship, but if not, I would find it very interesting if her partner now wasn't OK with her doing the same, when it came to the crunch. This is consensual, informed polyamory from the go-get, and those are the ground rules mutually agreed to. (This is what the OP said, and that's what I'm going on.)


Quote:
Originally Posted by AnitaAnne View Post
PS - I speak from personal experience. Learning to stand still and refuse to cower from angry people is empowering...
this, @AnitaAnne . I'm so glad you found a way to do that, and I recommend that to anyone who's been in those sorts of situations. Funny that this is the one thing I learnt to do early, it just seemed to be in my DNA or soul or wherever from the beginning. As a very young child, obviously, I cowered and cried and hid myself from people, but from the time I was a teenager and reading about social justice, and actually reading the gospels, I stopped cowering because I knew then that bullying someone didn't make the bully right, and that bullying and intimidating people and treating them with disrespect was morally wrong - plus, I wasn't quite so afraid of death anymore (which is partly what terrorises the young child - but mostly, the young child is terrorised by the behaviour of the people they want to love). What Martin Luther King wrote in Strength to Love applied to more than the macrocosm of society as a whole, it also applied to individual, personal situations. I read it in one sitting at age 14 and was never the same. As a lot of people said about this book, Jesus gave us an ethic in the Sermon on the Mount, MLK and Gandhi show us how to live that.

So yeah, it's very empowering not to cringe in the face of aggression, and to be completely unimpressed by it. It can be really helpful when dealing with people who don't yet have the maturity to deal with their own negative emotions constructively. And actual bullies just hate it when they can't scare you, or when you don't lose your own dignity or authenticity because of their destructive tactics.


I also second what @AnitaAnne says about the value of living on your own, and not in relationships - and not even with room mates, if you can at all swing it (granny flats are great!). In unhealthy families, kids don't come out at age 18 self-assured and authentic and standing squarely on their own two feet mentally, emotionally, spiritually, practically, financially. And much as community is about interdependence, you have to be truly independent before you can be usefully interdependent with others. People coming from dysfunctional families more often than not start out codependent, because that's what family life was like. This also happened to me. Looking back, it was getting out of my first serious (and dysfunctional) relationship at age 24 and living completely on my own for seven years straight after that, and therefore having the space to get some perspective and learn the things I ideally ought to have learnt in a healthy childhood, that was one of the biggest factors in my having a stable, productive adult life, and an eventual healthy, lasting relationship.

It's an investment really worth making. So many people from dysfunctional backgrounds end up going from disastrous relationship to disastrous relationship, and that ends of being their life. Much better to take time out when you're young and still at the start of your adulthood, be a bit ascetic, have your own space and thoughts so you can develop authentically, if you weren't nurtured, or loved for your authentic self as a child. And talk to a few people who have wisdom in these areas, and can help you find your feet!

Big to @Mythilus , @AnitaAnne , and everyone else who's been through serious childhood and other adversity.

And a PS: I'm saddened that there is still this gut reaction idea, in 2019, that the person staying at home is necessarily sponging off the income earner, and that this is necessarily their prime motivation for being in that relationship. This might be the case for a minority of people, but just to assume that automatically is actually really disrespectful, and generally factually incorrect. Usually, in single-income households, the other person is working as many, if not more, hours than the income earner, for their mutual good - they just don't get paid for it (I can pull up the Australian statistics on this if anyone wants them). And, if the income earner were to have to formally employ someone to do all the housekeeping, shopping, gardening, cooking and organising that the at-home person does, they usually couldn't afford that level of service.

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Last edited by SueC; 01-03-2019 at 10:21 PM.
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post #59 of 72 Old 01-04-2019, 02:06 AM
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[quote=Northerngal]Marriage was created by God and designed to be one man and one woman pledged to each other till death do them part. Those who want to be joined without Christ may as well just shack up. QUOTE]


Quote:
Originally Posted by loosie View Post
That bit is offensive & so wrong to me. It should start with 'in my personal opinion...' remember that while there may be many christians here, that's not all of us.
I'm truly sorry if I offended anyone out there, that does sound pretty harsh. Everyone (obviously) is entitled to their own opinions. Although I was under the impression that anything posted on a forum was opinion unless stated as fact. Even then if you look up the word marriage (since loooong before society decided it was ok to change things up and edited the definition) you'll find that it does mean one man one woman so that's a fact.

Here are the definition/etymologies of marriage and wedlock

"marriage: the relationship that exists between a husband and a wife" (note singular) That was from the Websters dictionary
"wedlock: the state of being married"


marriage (n.)


c. 1300, mariage, "action of entering into wedlock;" also "state or condition of being husband and wife, matrimony, wedlock;" also "a union of a man and woman for life by marriage, a particular matrimonial union;" from Old French mariage "marriage; dowry" (12c.), from Vulgar Latin *maritaticum (11c.), from Latin maritatus, past participle of maritatre "to wed, marry, give in marriage" (see marry (v.)). The Vulgar Latin word also is the source of Italian maritaggio, Spanish maridaje, and compare mariachi.


Meanings "the marriage vow, formal declaration or contract by which two join in wedlock;" also "a wedding, the celebration of a marriage; the marriage ceremony" are from late 14c. Figurative use (non-theological) "intimate union, a joining as if by marriage" is from late 14c.
[W]hen two people are under the influence of the most violent, most insane, most delusive, and most transient of passions, they are required to swear that they will remain in that excited, abnormal, and exhausting condition until death do them part. [G.B. Shaw, preface to "Getting Married," 1908]
wedlock (n.)


Old English wedlac "pledge-giving, marriage vow," from wed + -lac, noun suffix meaning "actions or proceedings, practice," attested in about a dozen Old English compounds (feohtlac "warfare"), but this is the only surviving example. Suffix altered by folk etymology through association with lock (n.1). Meaning "condition of being married" is recorded from early 13c.




Basically what I meant in my post was that a real marriage (before society changed the meaning of the word) meant one man and one women pledged to each other for life, excluding all other sexual relationships. That is what I've been taught all my life. I never meant to offend anyone but rather voice my opinion as many others have done here. I'm truly sorry if anyone felt offended by my post but I reserve the right to hold on to my beliefs the same as anyone else.


As for my advise for Mythilus, my OPINION remains the same, get out, don't make a pledge you don't intend to keep, get help, whether from a Christian or secular councillor, I think either would tell you to put off the marriage at least until you've worked things through with your partner/s

"Courage is being scared to death, but saddling up anyway" John Wayne
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post #60 of 72 Old 01-04-2019, 06:59 AM
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It's nice to see people actually referring to a dictionary - I love dictionaries! It is worth keeping in mind, though, that our main English language dictionaries in Australia, the UK and America represent the use of the language in those particular cultures, at that particular time, and that languages, or definitions, are not generally set in stone. Therefore, the UK's Oxford English dictionary is updating the term not to be gender-specific, and Australia's Macquarie has already done so, in line with the Marriage Equality vote in Australia. This is a nice change not just for non-heterosexual people who want to get married, but also for people born as intersexes / no specific gender who don't want to be excluded from the opportunity to marry the person they love and wish to commit to, just like any other adult.

And it's not the first time the definition of marriage has changed, thank goodness. Not that long ago, marriage made the woman the property of the man - the links below make interesting reading:

https://www.quora.com/Are-women-the-...their-husbands

https://www.quora.com/In-what-year-d...nds-in-England

Within the lifetime experiences of people I know, marriage in our culture used to automatically disqualify women from participating in the public service and other work, and a husband had the legal right to have non-consensual intercourse with his wife. The changes made in the last few hundred years were necessary because the previous practices weren't fair and equitable, but each time there was a change, a lot of people argued there shouldn't be one.

It's also interesting that marriage between two partners based on love and respect is a relatively modern concept. It wasn't always between two partners, and it certainly wasn't always about love and respect (and still often isn't). Historically, it was often about property arrangements and inheritance.

Polygamous marriages were the norm in many nomadic and indigenous cultures historically, usually one man to multiple women, including in the indigenous cultures of Native Australians and Native Americans. They are still legally and / or socially accepted in a number of cultures around the world. They were the norm in the Old Testament, and even polygamous men didn't necessarily limit themselves to their legal wives sexually, emotionally etc - Solomon was reported to have had 700 wives and 300 concubines (imagine the roster ) - David also had multiples of either.

Personally, I think the modern Australian (and Irish, etc etc) legal definition of marriage is a lot more equitable than the older definitions. Those current definitions of marriage require the consent of both parties, and confer equal rights in the matter to men and women, and to people of different sexual orientations, so that every adult can now choose to marry the person they love, by mutual consent.
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Last edited by SueC; 01-04-2019 at 07:14 AM.
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