Canker? Or whatís going on? - Page 3 - The Horse Forum
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post #21 of 75 Old 11-23-2019, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by WildestDandelion View Post
Thank you, things to consider. They recommend 2-3 times per week so Iím not sure. *scratches head*
<sigh> scratching my head too, lollol

I've never used the soak. Maybe 2-3X/week is necessary for your horse's issues. I only raise the question from the standpoint of softening the hooves even more, given the muddy conditions:(

Hopefully someone with soaking experience can comment on that:)

A Good Horseman Doesn't Have To Tell Anyone; The Horse Already Knows.

I CAN'T ride 'em n slide 'em. I HAVE to lead 'em n feed 'em Thnx cowchick77.
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post #22 of 75 Old 11-23-2019, 02:45 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by SteadyOn View Post
I'm a Facebook group about hoof rehab that advocates ensuring a balance of copper, zinc, and iron to grow a healthier hoof and help prevent chronic thrush and white line. (Other things too, but those are the main part of the puzzle.) As I don't own my own horse right now, I can't put any of that to the test myself, but I know a lot of members on there have seen huge improvements by ensuring those are all met and balanced in the diet. Not enough of any of those, or too much iron to zinc ratio, etc., can mess up feet in a way that topical treatments are only a band-aid for. Link about it here (NOT a Facebook link):

Feeding the Hoof
Farrier recommended that as well. She wants him on California trace. It’s just very expensive, but as others have said - it I don’t get this under control now the vet bill will be even worse...
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post #23 of 75 Old 11-23-2019, 04:52 PM Thread Starter
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Ok we got hoof flex therapeutic moisturizer. It says it’s for bacterial and fungal use and a breathable moisture barrier. I’m hoping it helps.
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post #24 of 75 Old 11-23-2019, 05:44 PM
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Nothing in those pics looks like canker at all to me *but I wouldn't go off opinions on photos only - I'd get a GOOD vet to examine him if you're really worried about it. But while canker can look like thrush, it grows, rather than staying the same or shrinking, so if it's been 5 months & hasn't become obviously worse/bigger, also not likely canker.

Horse's hooves a bit run forward - the first pictured the heels are quite run forward/crushed looking, and that will exacerbate effects of environment etc. Good nutrition will help reduce susceptibility and MSM has been found to especially reduce susceptibility in 'thrush prone' environments. Packing hooves with salt is helpful, not only for it's antiseptic qualities, but that it can help dry out a too wet foot through osmosis. And also, the obvious, but possibly very difficult for you depending on situation, ensure your horse has as much dry footing as possible, so he can at least spend part of each day with dry feet.
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post #25 of 75 Old 11-23-2019, 07:05 PM
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Just saw your post trim pics. Drew some lines... *Firstly a disclaimer that only rough idea from these pics. Depends on pic angle as to how accurate, depends on how well cleaned out dead sole as to how accurate...

Hoof mechanics/form/function can very much effect susceptibility to infection, and those feet, esp it seems left fore which is very contracted, have some issues which make it more likely...

You can see that the feet are all 'stretched' forward. the lines on the soles show (approx) balance & where the toes & heels should be. Fores are a bit stretched at the toe, quite 'run forward' at the heels(which also appear a bit high), while hind heels appear to be back where they should be(usual) but toes are stretched.

Hard to tell from those pics, but I sus a bit more bar material could have been removed, still looks a little grown over. While I don't tend to trim/pare sole at all as a rule, think it should be done as little as possible, given that a)you want to find out exactly where that foot 'should' be, b)the conditions your horse lives & that there is dead sole with jet black(infected cracks) and c)appears there may be some chronic buildup of dead sole that's not helpful, I would likely remove more of the dead sole than has been done.

As for 'scalping' the frogs, ditto to the above, that I don't believe it's beneficial to remove frog material generally either, and 'the 'scalping' of the outer layer of frog(as many farriers do by default) can leave a horse more sensitive & also susceptible to infection. But in the case of thrush, loose & flappy bits of frog, these should be removed and to leave that is potentially more harmful. To trim infected/messy frog is not at all 'scalping' IMO, and I wouldn't call the left for or hind frogs 'scalped', but it does appear the rights could have been a little overdone.
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post #26 of 75 Old 11-23-2019, 07:10 PM
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Oops, pics...
Attached Images
File Type: jpg A4880CC1-E10C-40CB-BDB1-95A598984899_1574483296706.jpg (105.4 KB, 43 views)
File Type: jpg 15D300BA-25B2-4BC1-9520-4C3EBA1E5809_1574483282647.jpg (103.9 KB, 42 views)
File Type: jpg 925FEE16-FB77-4B9F-B0C1-5255B11D3188_1574483347761.jpg (86.6 KB, 42 views)
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post #27 of 75 Old 11-25-2019, 11:22 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by loosie View Post
Nothing in those pics looks like canker at all to me *but I wouldn't go off opinions on photos only - I'd get a GOOD vet to examine him if you're really worried about it. But while canker can look like thrush, it grows, rather than staying the same or shrinking, so if it's been 5 months & hasn't become obviously worse/bigger, also not likely canker.

Horse's hooves a bit run forward - the first pictured the heels are quite run forward/crushed looking, and that will exacerbate effects of environment etc. Good nutrition will help reduce susceptibility and MSM has been found to especially reduce susceptibility in 'thrush prone' environments. Packing hooves with salt is helpful, not only for it's antiseptic qualities, but that it can help dry out a too wet foot through osmosis. And also, the obvious, but possibly very difficult for you depending on situation, ensure your horse has as much dry footing as possible, so he can at least spend part of each day with dry feet.
No loner worried about canker, thank goodness!

Thanks so much for the trim critique. I DO think the photos from the side are misleading because the poor boy is also pigeon toed and doesn't stand properly But he is definitely run forward. He WAS much worse, so I am glad to see progress. My farrier took these photos to post for critique in her group, so I am hopeful she learns from them as well.
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post #28 of 75 Old 11-25-2019, 11:26 AM Thread Starter
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@loosie , i see what you mean about the bars. Thank you!
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post #29 of 75 Old 11-25-2019, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by WildestDandelion View Post
Farrier recommended that as well. She wants him on California trace. Itís just very expensive, but as others have said - it I donít get this under control now the vet bill will be even worse...
It's not so much about the supplement given (even though California trace is a good option), but more about how the supplements/feed balance environmental (hay analysis, soil, blood etc) nutrient values. Environments differ in the value of nutrients present and this is also present in hay.

Copper is not the only nutrient involved in hoof quality, but is usually the mineral that is deficient in the environment either within feed or due to high zinc and iron values, which sort of "block" copper absorption. Iron and zinc are the most bioavailable (present in environment/hay and soil).

From a biological standpoint, the minerals copper, iron, zinc and manganese are all related in some way, thus alterations in the amount of one or another will influence the absorption rate of others. Minerals such as copper and zinc compete for receptor sites, as do zinc and iron. Thus, competition for receptors and consequently, nutrient absorption, is influenced by the ratios of these nutrients. So, it is really important to balance the ratios of these nutrients to ensure adequate absorbance. As you can see, even feeding X amount of copper, for example, does not necessarily guarantee that enough copper is being absorbed.

The absorption of copper is dependent on other nutrients in the hay, feed and even water. That is why a hay analysis would be the best approach to balancing your horse's diet.

Alternatively, you could get a very rough idea of what nutrients are high and low in the area the hay is grown in by looking at soil analysis reports for the state/province, which are usually online.

You could also test nutrients in the blood, although these can vary throughout the day and can be 'contaminated', thus showing false interpretations of values. For example, true iron deficiency (from decreased intake/absorption or external blood loss) is a less common cause of low blood iron concentrations. Some drugs can cause iron to appear low, time the horse has eaten, copper deficiency (an essential cofactor of hephaestin, which permits release of iron from intestinal cells), and zinc excess (inhibits copper uptake).
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post #30 of 75 Old 11-25-2019, 02:26 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Jolly101 View Post
It's not so much about the supplement given (even though California trace is a good option), but more about how the supplements/feed balance environmental (hay analysis, soil, blood etc) nutrient values. Environments differ in the value of nutrients present and this is also present in hay.

Copper is not the only nutrient involved in hoof quality, but is usually the mineral that is deficient in the environment either within feed or due to high zinc and iron values, which sort of "block" copper absorption. Iron and zinc are the most bioavailable (present in environment/hay and soil).

From a biological standpoint, the minerals copper, iron, zinc and manganese are all related in some way, thus alterations in the amount of one or another will influence the absorption rate of others. Minerals such as copper and zinc compete for receptor sites, as do zinc and iron. Thus, competition for receptors and consequently, nutrient absorption, is influenced by the ratios of these nutrients. So, it is really important to balance the ratios of these nutrients to ensure adequate absorbance. As you can see, even feeding X amount of copper, for example, does not necessarily guarantee that enough copper is being absorbed.

The absorption of copper is dependent on other nutrients in the hay, feed and even water. That is why a hay analysis would be the best approach to balancing your horse's diet.

Alternatively, you could get a very rough idea of what nutrients are high and low in the area the hay is grown in by looking at soil analysis reports for the state/province, which are usually online.

You could also test nutrients in the blood, although these can vary throughout the day and can be 'contaminated', thus showing false interpretations of values. For example, true iron deficiency (from decreased intake/absorption or external blood loss) is a less common cause of low blood iron concentrations. Some drugs can cause iron to appear low, time the horse has eaten, copper deficiency (an essential cofactor of hephaestin, which permits release of iron from intestinal cells), and zinc excess (inhibits copper uptake).
I could be wrong but I feel that it is not environmental since he already had thrush when we got him. He did not receive any hay in my care until just a few week ago. He was on full pasture until then, receiving alfalfa cubes and nutrena senior pellets for several months until we got his weight up. We don't have mud, but we do have very loamy soil that tends to hold moisture quite a bit.
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