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Coffin Bone Angulation

2K views 14 replies 5 participants last post by  Hondo 
#1 ·
"No Hoof = No Horse."

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I have read various articles about coffin bone angulation; I have compiled that there are two main theories. Should the coffin bone be ground parallel (0 degrees) or have a positive angle (0< )? Why?

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Some sources:

Ground-Parallel:
https://hoofnaturopath.com/?p=197
https://www.forloveofthehorse.com/blog/coffin-bone-remodeling/
https://www.hosshoofho.com/understand-founder.html
http://www.barefoothorse.com/barefoot_HoofShape.html

Positive Angle:
https://barehoofcare.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Breakover1.pdf
https://blog.easycareinc.com/dont-be-negative/
https://innovativeequinepodiatry.blogspot.com/p/radiographic-parameters-measurement.html
https://www.gravelproofhoof.org/low-plantar-angle/

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Glossary:

Coffin Bone: Distal Phalanx, "P3", Pedal Bone, Third Phalanx
Palmar: Front
Phalanx: Phalange
Plantar: Hind
 
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#2 ·
I'm of the camp that says P3 should not be ground parallel, but it should be slightly 'positive' angle, around 3-5 degrees toe down.

Why? Because this is the angle of P3 when all phalangeal bones are in alignment, which is when joints & ligaments are in a 'neutral' position, not under stress. When bones are 'broken back' or 'broken forward' this tends to cause wear and calcification(osteo-arthritis) - and eventual lameness. Because when P3 is on a slightly positive angle, the collateral grooves will be pretty much ground parallel front to back, with relatively uniform sole thickness. Because a well developed caudal foot will have a positively angled P3. Because the healthiest, soundest footed horses examined, inlcuding arid zone feral horses have a positively angled P3. Because I've never met a fully sound horse who had ground parallel P3s
 
#3 ·
Should humans be pigeon toed or turned out? I believe some have conformation that is best left pigeon toed. Others not. To mess with either is a mistake.


I agree with loosie that the alignment of the phalanges bones resulting from the angle of P3 is paramount. But I'm not certain what angle with the ground results in this correct alignment. I suspect, and have read the same (somewhere?), that the best angle varies with the horse as does the angle of the human foot mentioned above.


I have become convinced that the live sole plane is the best guide for proper alignment of P3. If the hoof is trimmed so that the live sole is ground parallel, I believe the bony column will be correct, with any slight misalignment being just differences from horse to horse.


A note on checking the alignment of the bony column by x-ray. The horse must be standing square with the two fores and two hinds being at the same elevation.


Since the hoof is placed upon a raised platform for x-ray, the opposite foot needs to be on a similar platform. With some horses this can be difficult and time consuming with many vets not doing it. There are, however, special boots made for exactly this purpose that the better vets will have. And of course the elevation and placement of the x-ray machine is important.


If all this is not done correctly, the bony column may appear misaligned when it is not as the angles change continually during movement.
 
#5 ·
Should humans be pigeon toed or turned out? I believe some have conformation that is best left pigeon toed. Others not. To mess with either is a mistake.
Is it?? One of my kids was really 'pigeon toed' in one foot when a toddler & the doc said that if it stayed that way, seeing a podiatrist & using a brace would be important. Thankfully it straightened itself out.

I agree with loosie that the alignment of the phalanges bones resulting from the angle of P3 is paramount. But I'm not certain what angle with the ground results in this correct alignment.
According to... can't recall sources, no time to look up... actually don't recall if ELPO has facts & figures on this, but betting... most I've seen, seems to be general consensus that for bones to be in alignment, the distal surface angle is within the realm of 3-5 degrees - of course, as we're talking animals, there is no one hard & fast measurement - everyone is individual.


I suspect, and have read the same (somewhere?), that the best angle varies with the horse as does the angle of the human foot mentioned above.

I have become convinced that the live sole plane is the best guide for proper alignment of P3. If the hoof is trimmed so that the live sole is ground parallel, I believe the bony column will be correct,
Yeah, that's what I meant - agree. Generally. as per above comment on individual diffs, it's not infallible, but a good general rule I reckon.
 
#4 ·
I think as with most things there is a wide range of normal and each individual is unique. So for some what is out of range may be perfectly normal for others not so much. You go by the horse and what his feet tell you.
 
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#6 ·
ELPO does mention that the bones should align. But ELPO is mostly about the live sole plane being very close to if not infallible.


Glad your youngen's leg straightened out. But I have to wonder what would have happened if a proactive doctor had began straightening it right away. Could have been worse off. Will never know.



But yeah, there are always those examples where intervention does need to take place. Ramey in one of his free articles or DVD's mentioned how one of his own feet was turned out more than the other. But he said he ran and got around just fine. Didn't bother him a bit.
 
#10 ·
ELPO does mention that the bones should align. But ELPO is mostly about the live sole plane being very close to if not infallible.
Yeah, I don't really see that as a 'but', as it has been found that 'following' the live sole plane is appropriate BECAUSE that is a good indication of bone alignment.

From your barefoothorse.com quote; What you see on an x-ray is not the bottom edge (which is too thin to show up well)

Yes, and I do think this confuses a lot of people. On many xrays I've seen, it doesn't show the extension of P3. It does show on most good rads though, albeit not as clear - because it's not as dense/thick - as the main body of P3. Yeah, when bones are in alignment, the 'plane' is very close to ground parallel, often difficult to tell just by eyeballing. You often actually have to measure it to see that it's a few degrees off horizontal.
 
#8 · (Edited)
Oooo....., I see how some could interpret that.


Correction: The live sole at the perimeter of the hoof capsule is the guiding light that ELPO refers to. And while the live sole can be difficult to learn to recognize, it is much more readily available than a veterinarian set up to accurately determine the bone alignment, at least in my area.


And they are not talking about the live sole being in contact with the ground but parallel to it with a little hoof wall extending beyond.



The general public is not the only area where things are misunderstood. I have had only one trimmer come out and he was recommended by "someone" online that was supposed to be good. Conducted classes etc.


This trimmer said he had drifted away from ELPO while mentioning that using the widest part of the hoof to determine the center of rotation was flawed if the horse had flares in that area.


Of course ELPO clearly advises to use the widest part of the sole as flares can throw the location off.


Widest part of the hoof is misleading to many, me included at one time. Should be called widest part of the sole.

Edit: The live sole need not be exfoliated all around the hoof capsule to determine how to trim. A small spot near the widest part of the hoof and at the seat of the corn is all that is needed. The rest can be left for added protection in dry hard circumstances for the barefoot horses.
Paid the trimmer a large chunk of money and that was, is, and will be the last I've seen of him.
 
#9 ·
This threw me a bit of a curve. The indication is that what we see on an x-ray of a positive P3 angle may actually be a zero angle.


Quote: What "GROUND-PARALLEL" means. The sharp, curved bottom edge of the coffin bone makes an arc (like a new moon). For correct alignment of the leg bones, this curved edge should sit nearly level on the ground. What you see on an x-ray is not the bottom edge (which is too thin to show up well) but a cross-section through the body of the bone, which is concave so that it slopes upward. It's very hard to see the bottom edge of the coffin bone on an x-ray, and therefore to know whether your horse's coffin bone is ground-parallel. Instead, we can determine ground-parallel by using the sole (which matches the bottom of the coffin bone) as a guide to trimming the hoof.

Quoted from https://www.barefoothorse.com/barefoot_HoofShape.html


I had not read and did not know that. Makes learning to identify the live sole even more important.Edit: Since I do use the live sole, this seems to put me in the ground parallel pew.
 
#11 ·
I had not really thought about it before this thread, but if the corium under the sole is uniform thickness as it is said to be, and if the sole is uniform thickness front to back, as it is said to be in a non-foundered/laminitic horse, then the coffin/pedal, P3 MUST be ground parallel.


Or so it seems to me.


I had always considered that there was some angle based on what I had read plus my and others x-rays, but now I'm sort of switching over.
 
#12 ·
^I'm not sure why you're thinking that the sole must be ground parallel front to back. Also don't forget, the pedal bone only extends back about 2/3 of the foot - there is no bone in the caudal foot. As yes, live sole plane & corium are (virtually) uniform thickness, if you measured the angle of live sole(presuming you could measure that accurately) from toe to quarter, that would give you a pretty accurate idea of the distal surface angle of P3.
 
#13 ·
I'm not sure why you're thinking that the sole must be ground parallel front to back.

Again, for other readers, we're talking about just the portion of the sole that is adjacent to hoof capsule.


Well loosie, I'm not exactly "thinking" it. I'm just accepting what I understand both Pete Ramey and Gene Ovnicek claim based on their research and multiple dissections.


Other than my limited first hand experience, that pretty much sums up my base knowledge.


What, may I ask, leads you to think or believe that perimeter ground level trimming is not so important on a healthy foot? Not speaking to specialized circumstances of treatment for various ailments where even Gene O. has products to raise the heel during a particular phase of rehab.
 
#14 ·
^I think you're misunderstanding - or maybe I'm not being clear. So far as I remember, Ramey & Ovnicek do not contradict others - or first hand observations of almost every hoof I've seen, to some extent - & can't imagine why they would - in saying that the sole is flat, front to back. I don't recall anyone denying there should be some degree of arch to the sole at the quarters.

As to your question 'what makes me believe...' If I understand what you mean by that - ie trimming the walls to uniform 'height' above live sole plane all round - that IS what I do (as you said, not speaking of special circumstances) & I do absolutely think it's an important principle/practice. Not sure what I said that you took to be contrary to that?
 
#15 ·
Rather than speaking about the sole being flat which could be misleading, I'm referring to the uniform thickness of the sole, front to back and side to side on a healthy foot.


The thing that bothers be about the term "flat sole" is that is exactly what happened when Hondo was foundered.


And agreed, all that actually address the physiology of the foot say it is arched if left to it's own devices as I have also witnessed on horses I've worked on.


So again, I'm not speaking about anything being flat on a hoof. Uniform thickness of the sole is what I'm talking about.


But as I type, it's dawning that if there is uniform thickness as claimed by those who claim to know, and since we both agree there is an arch, then the coffin would have to be tilted at least a little when the foot was unloaded. Then possible flat when loaded as claimed by some.


Perhaps this is the reason for the different opinions in the posted articles. I have not read any opinions where the degree of angulation is suggested while referring to the loaded and unloaded foot.


Ramey's discussion on his very successful protocol for reversing distal decent and P3 rotation very clearly in words and pictures says trimming the heel to gradually bring the coffin bone to ground parallel is paramount to his protocol, particularly for rebuilding sole thickness and concavity at the toe. But again, he does not specify a loaded or unloaded foot.


As I recall, Gene O. says 3 to 5 degrees but 0 is ok, but not negative. But again, I do not recall any comments about whether the foot is loaded or unloaded


Gene O. does of course talk about the arch as doe Ramey, but not when talking about the degree of angulation of P3, although they do talk about the arch coming from the angulation of P3.


For now, I'm going to conclude that when they are speaking about ground parallel, they are speaking about a loaded foot, and when they are speaking about the arch and angulation, they are speaking about the physiology of the unloaded foot. (until I learn otherwise)


I would agree that most domesticated horses do have some angulation even when loaded but lean toward the notion that this is not natural and is a result of shoeing, bad trimming, or both.


Sorry about the meandering long post..........thinking out load at 5 am on my second cup of java........
 
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