Coffin Bone Angulation - Page 2 - The Horse Forum
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post #11 of 15 Old 01-21-2020, 07:43 AM
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I had not really thought about it before this thread, but if the corium under the sole is uniform thickness as it is said to be, and if the sole is uniform thickness front to back, as it is said to be in a non-foundered/laminitic horse, then the coffin/pedal, P3 MUST be ground parallel.


Or so it seems to me.


I had always considered that there was some angle based on what I had read plus my and others x-rays, but now I'm sort of switching over.
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post #12 of 15 Old 01-22-2020, 06:23 AM
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^I'm not sure why you're thinking that the sole must be ground parallel front to back. Also don't forget, the pedal bone only extends back about 2/3 of the foot - there is no bone in the caudal foot. As yes, live sole plane & corium are (virtually) uniform thickness, if you measured the angle of live sole(presuming you could measure that accurately) from toe to quarter, that would give you a pretty accurate idea of the distal surface angle of P3.
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post #13 of 15 Old 01-22-2020, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loosie View Post
I'm not sure why you're thinking that the sole must be ground parallel front to back.

Again, for other readers, we're talking about just the portion of the sole that is adjacent to hoof capsule.


Well loosie, I'm not exactly "thinking" it. I'm just accepting what I understand both Pete Ramey and Gene Ovnicek claim based on their research and multiple dissections.


Other than my limited first hand experience, that pretty much sums up my base knowledge.


What, may I ask, leads you to think or believe that perimeter ground level trimming is not so important on a healthy foot? Not speaking to specialized circumstances of treatment for various ailments where even Gene O. has products to raise the heel during a particular phase of rehab.
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post #14 of 15 Old 01-23-2020, 03:57 AM
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^I think you're misunderstanding - or maybe I'm not being clear. So far as I remember, Ramey & Ovnicek do not contradict others - or first hand observations of almost every hoof I've seen, to some extent - & can't imagine why they would - in saying that the sole is flat, front to back. I don't recall anyone denying there should be some degree of arch to the sole at the quarters.

As to your question 'what makes me believe...' If I understand what you mean by that - ie trimming the walls to uniform 'height' above live sole plane all round - that IS what I do (as you said, not speaking of special circumstances) & I do absolutely think it's an important principle/practice. Not sure what I said that you took to be contrary to that?
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post #15 of 15 Old 01-23-2020, 08:08 AM
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Rather than speaking about the sole being flat which could be misleading, I'm referring to the uniform thickness of the sole, front to back and side to side on a healthy foot.


The thing that bothers be about the term "flat sole" is that is exactly what happened when Hondo was foundered.


And agreed, all that actually address the physiology of the foot say it is arched if left to it's own devices as I have also witnessed on horses I've worked on.


So again, I'm not speaking about anything being flat on a hoof. Uniform thickness of the sole is what I'm talking about.


But as I type, it's dawning that if there is uniform thickness as claimed by those who claim to know, and since we both agree there is an arch, then the coffin would have to be tilted at least a little when the foot was unloaded. Then possible flat when loaded as claimed by some.


Perhaps this is the reason for the different opinions in the posted articles. I have not read any opinions where the degree of angulation is suggested while referring to the loaded and unloaded foot.


Ramey's discussion on his very successful protocol for reversing distal decent and P3 rotation very clearly in words and pictures says trimming the heel to gradually bring the coffin bone to ground parallel is paramount to his protocol, particularly for rebuilding sole thickness and concavity at the toe. But again, he does not specify a loaded or unloaded foot.


As I recall, Gene O. says 3 to 5 degrees but 0 is ok, but not negative. But again, I do not recall any comments about whether the foot is loaded or unloaded


Gene O. does of course talk about the arch as doe Ramey, but not when talking about the degree of angulation of P3, although they do talk about the arch coming from the angulation of P3.


For now, I'm going to conclude that when they are speaking about ground parallel, they are speaking about a loaded foot, and when they are speaking about the arch and angulation, they are speaking about the physiology of the unloaded foot. (until I learn otherwise)


I would agree that most domesticated horses do have some angulation even when loaded but lean toward the notion that this is not natural and is a result of shoeing, bad trimming, or both.


Sorry about the meandering long post..........thinking out load at 5 am on my second cup of java........
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