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Feet Still Sore

4K views 45 replies 6 participants last post by  loosie 
#1 ·
Pony got trimmed Monday and when I rode him today he still seemed sore. He didn't want to walk, although he was OK at the trot. I asked the instructor what she thought, and she thought he seemed sore on his hind end (on the bright side, he apparently was really getting his back feet under him when he trotted), but she didn’t think he was trimmed too short. I had the barn owner watch me ride him as well, and she thought he was just generally sore. She said a lot of the horses have had to have back shoes added right now because the ground is so hard.

I rode him on the grass and he felt a lot better than in the (sand) arena.

What I’m wondering is, if it’s true that he was using his back legs differently AND he was sore, does that mean the trimmer changed his angles? It’s one thing for me to ask her to not trim them so short next time, but if she’s changing the angles I don’t know what to do.
 
#2 ·
I think it could mean different things.

If he's sore, he could be using his body differently to compensate, without angles being changed at all. That could make him sore in other areas.


Can I make a recommendation? After each trim take a couple photos, they don't have to be great, or for critique or anything, but that way you have a reference through time to see changes.


One of my horses can get a little tender and I put him on a supplement that helped within a few days. He was fine in deep footing but would get a little sore on harder footing. It's called remission by animed. I'm not saying it's necessarily right for this situation but might be worth researching more.
 
#3 ·
I rode him on the grass and he felt a lot better than in the (sand) arena.
If change in footing causes change in way of going/comfort then this generally indicates it is foot pain causing the issue. But could be that deep sand & whatever you were asking of him was causing soreness because of body issues or some such.

What I’m wondering is, if it’s true that he was using his back legs differently AND he was sore, does that mean the trimmer changed his angles?
No. She might have changed angles for some reason - you should know that, we can't see the horse & the current/old angle - but with only this info you have given, it is *possible* that the reason he was sore was due to significant change in hoof angle, but... who knows?? But if that were the case, unlikely he would be more sore on soft, yielding footing like sand.
 
#4 ·
If change in footing causes change in way of going/comfort then this generally indicates it is foot pain causing the issue. But could be that deep sand & whatever you were asking of him was causing soreness because of body issues or some such.



No. She might have changed angles for some reason - you should know that, we can't see the horse & the current/old angle - but with only this info you have given, it is *possible* that the reason he was sore was due to significant change in hoof angle, but... who knows?? But if that were the case, unlikely he would be more sore on soft, yielding footing like sand.
That's good to know. I will just remind her next time to not trim so short then.
 
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#5 ·
What is trimming short?? I don't understand.


Gene Ovnicek recommends trimming to around 1/8" above the live sole. So how would trimming short relate to that? Does it involve trimming away some live sole adjacent to the hoof capsule?


Fill me in please.
 
#21 ·
To me, trimming short means trimming/paring into the sole. Many people(inc farriers) are still into the idea that horses should be peripherally loaded, walking on their toe nails, and for them, 'too short' may be just trimming walls too close to sole level. IME that one doesn't leave a horse sore though. Well, not immediately after a trim anyway.
 
#6 ·
The new trimmer cuts off more hoof wall relative to the outside of the sole.
 
#7 ·
If the horse were standing on a perfectly smooth surface do you mean only the sole would be touching? That the hoof wall would be not touching?


I think I'm not understanding 'relative to the outside of the sole'. Outside as in the solar surface or outside as in adjacent to the hoof wall.


I'm trying......really.
 
#8 ·
I believe that solar surface is the right phrase. I don't have my hoof book handy. I mean the part of the sole that touches the ground. Equivalent to the sole of your foot.
 
#9 ·
Yes, the part that touches the ground is solar surface.


So does he actually cut the hoof wall where it is above the solar surface when standing, or just shorter than usual? If the horse were standing on that perfectly flat smooth surface, would the solar surface be touching? If not, how high above said surface.


I'm wanting to know this because your horse should not be tender.
 
#10 ·
I went back and reread some stuff. Being sore in sand but not on more firm stuff just doesn't compute. Sand takes more muscle but not more hoof. Sand is normally good for a sore footed horse. Even if the angles are wrong, the horse can put the angles where they feel the best.


Strange.
 
#22 ·
I went back and reread some stuff. Being sore in sand but not on more firm stuff just doesn't compute. Sand takes more muscle but not more hoof. Sand is normally good for a sore footed horse. Even if the angles are wrong, the horse can put the angles where they feel the best.

Strange.
IF horse is laminitic or has extremely thin soles, then even sand can be problematic. The horse may be comfortable on firm, flat footing, such as concrete, because the sensitive sole is not under pressure, but with the sole pressure of sand or such forcing it to be under load it is painful. **Not saying that's the issue here tho. Who knows without much more info.
 
#11 ·
Well, now that I think back on it, he was worse when we were going along the "track" around the perimeter of the arena, and better once we moved a few feet over, where the footing was deeper. The footing along that track is fairly hard.

She trims the "toe" part of his hoof wall to level with the solar surface. The sides she leaves a little higher.

I'm just hoping he will be back to normal soon.
 
#12 ·
On the face of it, that doesn't sound bad. If the wall is tightly attached to the coffin, there is a structure all around under the edge of the coffin called the toe callus which is formed partly from the sole and partly form the......laminae or hoof wall. It's really strong and that is the proper structure for break over. Would not want hoof wall extending past that at the toe as it would cause mechanical force against the hoof wall trying to pry it away from the coffin.


And a little bit higher all around. So good so far. But now an important question. Do you watch her and do you know if, how much, and where, she trims the sole?
 
#13 ·
She doesn't believe in trimming the sole or frog unless there are bits of it flapping around that could get stuff trapped in them. I asked her about it because Pony and Teddy had flaky soles the last time she came, and I was wondering if she would take the flakes off. She didn't.
 
#14 ·
Yeah, I remember you saying that now. Sounds like she would be doing thing ok from what you are saying.



Horses can present so many mysteries! And one person said it was in the hinds. It's been a while but there were some good YouTube videos on determining which hoof was lame.


If she doesn't mess with the sole or frog anymore than necessary, doesn't seem likely that any angles could be changed. Hmmm....


Makes me wonder if it's possible that some other problem other than trimming popped up at about the same time as the trim.


There is the head bob at the walk. The head will hit the top when the fore sore is at maximum pressure for the stride. We people throw our shoulder up, horse throws their head up.


Hinds are harder but not real hard. I've just forgotten how to tell.


But I'm suggesting if she's sore, which hoof or hooves is first. Then figure out what part of the sore hoof. There's ways to do that. Until those questions are answered, it seems to be just wild guessing in the wind. Been there done that. And may be there again.
 
#15 ·
But I'm suggesting if she's sore, which hoof or hooves is first. Then figure out what part of the sore hoof. There's ways to do that. Until those questions are answered, it seems to be just wild guessing in the wind. Been there done that. And may be there again.
That's good thinking. There was no head bobbing today.

The thing is, this is my experience so far with this trimmer.
(1) trim 1, I notice she trims more hoof wall than the old trimmer did. Horses don't want to walk on the gravel road for the next few days, then Pony steps on something and is lame enough to need to be in a paddock for a week.
(2) trim 2, I asked her not to trim so much off, all horses were fine.
(3) trim 3, I forgot to ask her to not trim so much off, she takes more off again, Pony and Moonshine seem sore (especially Pony). That's why I'm thinking she's trimming too short. I'm glad that it doesn't sound like she's changing the angles. Like I said before, if it's just a case of her trimming too short, I will ask her again next time to not do it.
 
#16 ·
If she's sore from trimming to even 1/8th to 1/16th beyond the sole, she should not be sore. The hoof walls are not designed to carry the load. That is called peripheral loading and it can cause mechanical founder on very hard surfaces for extended periods. Think asphalt.


It is sounding to me like she possibly has thin soles. If so, that needs to be addressed rather than covering it up with peripheral loading, one of loosie's favorite terms.


Did you have any good lateral 'side shots' of her hooves with the camera down low on your other thread? If so, gimme a link. I'd like to see the slope of her hooves in front and heels.


Horses with thin soles can be shod and problem appears to go away. But it's still there and the shoes will likely exacerbate the problem down the road. Same for leaving walls longer than they should be.


As you know, I'm far from an expert but I am inclined to think there's more to this than trimming too short or too long.
 
#17 ·
1. AC,. There is a Rule of Thumb regarding length of hoof after a trim.

I found a couple of good articles but I am posting an HF link from back in the day when Patty Stiller was active, and someone asked the hoof length question.

https://www.horseforum.com/hoof-care/how-many-inches-long-should-hoof-494785/

Patty’s comment is post #3. Hopefully this will be helpful as to whether or not the farrier trimmed the toes too short:)

2. Also, there are hoof packings you can pack barefoot hooves with, that will help alleviate soreness IF it is indeed coming from the hoof.

Magic Cushion is what I have used but there are others out there. I can say that Magic Cushion is not inclined to come out of the hoof easily. I pack it in the hoof, plaster some clean shavings on top, and it has stayed in Joker’s hooves three days, sometimes longer.

Either wear surgeon type gloves or have a bottle of rubbing alcohol & paper towels close by to get it off your hands.

If your horse is still the same amount of sore with the hoof packing, then my thought would be the heels were cut too short and the tendons are strained:)
 
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#18 ·
Ok. I found the thread in subscriptions.


Yeah, the untrimmed feet were way way too long.


And the trimmed feet do "look" like she's walking on a lot of sole. Just going by the light color around the perimeter of the sole.


So maybe she is trimming too short OR maybe there is too much dead sole build up around the perimeter of the sole. Gene Ovincek exfoliates the live sole adjacent to the wall and then trims according to that. 1/8" or so.


Before Hondo's problems, I always exfoliated at least a spot on each quarter and the seat of corn for a guide for trimming.


If that sole is hammering on the terrain without help from the wall, that could well be the problem.


Too short wall or too much built up dead sole.
.
 
#19 ·
I was saddened when Patty left. She was a resource. I think I might gently ask the trimmer if they expose the live sole to trim by. That's the key, as explained by a sure fire expert.



I copied her post. Says what I was trying to say but better. Here and Gene are not only on the same page, they are the same page.


Quote:


There is no absolute in inches because it depends on how long and how low the bone inside is.
The AVERAGE for most regular size horses is
about 3 to 3-1/4" at the toe.

Feral horses(mustangs in the wild ) sometimes have shorter hooves but it is because the bone sits very high up inside the foot. That is why we can not trim a domestic horses hoof as short as a mustang hoof.
The SOLE of the foot determines how long the foot should be. A good trim only trims almost to the sole . If the farrier or trimmer trims into the living, functional layer of sole. they trimmed too short.
Since your horses hooves are so short, had they just been trimmed recently? End Quote
 
#20 · (Edited)
Here's another post of Patty's that applies to this thread. I think it would be worth my time and anybody else's to click on her name and read ALL of her past posts.


https://www.horseforum.com/hoof-care/corrections-hoof-648033/page2/#post8436497


Edit: And oh yeah, I always did, and still do, more than probing around the apex of the frog. I expose the true tip of the frog where the transition from frog to sole is continuous. That plus the exposed live sole at the quarters tell one EXACTLY how much concavity there is and that is a very very good indication of sole thickness. I'm sure Patty gets into that in other posts. May have been where I learned it even.


Edit 2: And for any that do not know, trimming 'to' the live sole does not mean at the same level but rather according to it or relative to it. If 1/8 is left in one spot, then same everywhere.







Quote:

Differentiating between dead retained sole and functional live sole is not tricky at all IF the trimmer /farrier has been trained to recognize the landmarks and signs. In that sole evaluation process it is also pretty easy to to tell if the foot is long because it is sunk ,or long just because of excess retained, flat, shiny dead sole. without X-rays.
There are specific areas of the sole and frog commissures that tell you that. The most important is observing, (even probing) the depth around the frog apex. ALSO, all hooves should be trimmed to the functional sole plane whether barefoot or shod. this is very important to foals. because if you "tweak" a foal hoof out of balance to ITS OWN SOLE, you will quickly cause hoof capsule deformities. Sometimes a foals will need an early intervention for a LEG issue and adding glued on appliances to the properly balanced foot IS OK temporarily, to change the load through the leg. These appliances do NOT alter the side to side balance of the hoof but rather add a 'platform' or extension on one side of the foot. or out the back, or front,depending on what the leg needs to begin to grow differently. All of these kinds of things are used EARLY n the foals life, sometimes as early as a week or so old.
Now as to correcting the FOOT, in order to maintain a good bone column and soundness for the future, the foot that is correctly trimmed to ITS own sole plane will point where the leg points. and should be allowed to do so.
 
#23 ·
@ACinATX , the next time Teddy's feet are picked, slip the pick under the frog apex and see how much if any of the tip is floating loose. If there's a lot, estimate how far back the loose part is connected and measure from there to the front of the toe in inches.


Also note how deep the depression under the loose tip is, if there is a loose tip. Also note how deep the collateral grooves are at the heel. And pry a little on the frog at the heel to see if there is any looseness. That would be to check if there is possibly some thrushyness starting to develop under the frogs at the bottom of the collaterals.


Just something to check and look at.



The feet really look nice on the outside.
 
#24 ·
Thanks everyone for replying. I bookmarked the Patty threads to read.

@Hondo this was the same trimmer, but the hooves I posted were Teddy's and Pony is the one having problems. I wouldn't be surprised if Teddy would have problems too if I were riding him right now, but I'm not. But thank you so much for finding and looking at that thread -- I should have just linked it, even though it's a different horse -- it's still the same trim.

Pony has really thick soles and deep collateral grooves. Every trimmer or farrier I've ever had has gushed over his feet. Soles so thick, walls so strong, connection so tight, etc. Teddy and Moonshine had thinner soles, but over the year where our old trimmer trimmed them, they got thicker (based on observations of the depth of the grooves). But Pony just naturally has amazing feet. He's fat, although not terribly so, but I'm not thinking laminitis -- he is not cresty, and of course I ask every trimmer about it pretty much every time they see him, because I'm paranoid about it. I do wonder if he might be a little thrushy, though. I always examine his hooves pretty closely when I pick them, and while they have not been smelly there was a little black stuff in one of them last time. So I will treat for that. (The problem is our soil looks black when wet or even damp, so it's hard sometimes to differentiate mud in those grooves from something worse).

I'm going to continue the Keratex a couple of days a week until he's better (yes, I know, not in the frogs).
 
#29 ·
LOL no, I didn't think to take any, I don't know why. I will take some next time I'm out there (Tuesday), although at that point it will be a week out from his trim so I'm not sure how useful it will be.
 
#31 · (Edited)
:D:D:D

LOL I am a wiggler. Actually, what I really am is forgetful. I will try really hard to get those pics.
 
#32 ·
#35 ·
I have been told many times that my hoof pictures are poor. Hopefully these are decent.
To be fair, between angles, lighting/shadow, etc, it IS hard to get really good pics - just like confo pics; do you think they'll stand square when you step away??! And I still take heaps of bad hoof pics myself, but in this digital age, just take a heap - then you're bound to get a few good ones!
 
#36 ·
When Joker foundered in 2012 and I was taking pictures, ad nauseum, I would bring him into a level part of the driveway, on a clear day of sunshine, and stand his front hooves on a piece of plywood.

I set the camera on the piece of plywood and would snap the pictures. It was the best possible way for me to get quality pictures for critique - on a level driveway, on plywood so even the gravel could not misrepresent anything. I learned any sort of shadow in those hoof pics got the picture deleted because shadows can really skew a picture.
 
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