Foundered pony *with rads* - The Horse Forum
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post #1 of 10 Old 07-11-2019, 01:56 PM Thread Starter
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Foundered pony *with rads*

My welsh mare foundered back in March due to being overfed while I was on vacation, I had entrusted my horses care to my MIL (she has horse experience and grew up with them, I thought she was trustworthy and would follow my feeding instructions.) My senior gelding was getting soaked alfalfa cubes and senior feed twice a day and I can only deduce that she fed my mare and mini gelding A LOT of alfalfa cubes and/or senior feed out of pitty as they were to get *nothing* but grass hay, there was a lot of snow cover on the ground at that time and they were in a dry lot area so no spring grass or anything growing for that matter. Regardless, my mare foundered and these are the rads as of yesterday, she’s been trimmed twice since then and is 6 weeks past last trim and due soon. Farrier was afraid to take too much toe without rads. She was sore for maybe a week after I got home from my trip and it hasn’t seemed to keep her from tearing around like a mad woman. Vet said there is some rotation but it’s not horrible, not a career ending prognosis as she’s not currently lame but will obviously be more prone to laminitis and abscesses in the future, and may need shoes if we ride on rocks or gravel often. Is being kept in dry lot with grass hay only. Excuse the long toe, as I said my farrier was afraid to take too much toe at last trim without rads to see where coffin bone sits and this is 6 weeks post trim. I haven’t talked to my farrier yet as I just emailed the rads to her.

Hoping to get some further insight. Of course I try hard to prevent this from happening and it happened anyway 😞
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post #2 of 10 Old 07-11-2019, 02:24 PM
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I can't comment on the rads, but do be aware that some grass hay can be quite high in sugar, and can be worse than alfalfa hay for setting off laminitis. You might want to get your hay tested. Sorry if you already know this, but I thought I'd put it out there in case you didn't.
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post #3 of 10 Old 07-11-2019, 06:10 PM
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Is your farrier experienced with founder? I would be calling him out to take that toe off now that you have rads. The longer it remains, the more stretching and pulling occurs. If he doesn't feel comfortable trimming, maybe ask your vet to recommend a farrier.
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post #4 of 10 Old 07-12-2019, 07:43 PM
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1. There is such a thing as cold weather laminitis, so don't discount the weather:)

2. Yes, by all means hay can test excessively high in non-structural carbohydrates (NSC). It would be best to get your hay tested if you can buy more than a week at a time:). Equi-Analytical in New York is the go-to for testing horse hay:)

I would post the link but, as usual, the HF software and my IPad are barely speaking, so I'll be lucky to get this posted:)

3. I am sorry but no, I will not excuse the farrier for those horribly long toes. No excuses, he/she needed to cut more toe off. The coffin bone in the x-Ray with the "R" on it is rotated pretty good. Long toes are bad to begin with but they are not doing the coffin bones any favors.

3.1. It's been my personal experience with my own foundered horse that there a some great farrier's as long as they only have to deal with basically healthy hooves.

When it comes to special needs hooves, such as your horse's, they are worthless and often do more harm than good.

Find a farrier with credentials and experience in rehabbing foundered hooves.

4. If those rads are "post six weeks", that is way too long for foundered hooves to go between trims. Looking at the rotation, the horse should initially be trimmed every four weeks, especially since this is the growing season, then go to five weeks.

A farrier should not have to play "catch up" when rehabbing hooves -- a farrier should be able to trim often enough to make progress with each trim.

5. If you are attempting to keep the horse barefoot, there are great therapy boots on the market these days. I am biased to EasyCare products but others may have a different opinion.

If you plan on shoeing, consider a liquid hoof pack (VetTec's EquiPak CS) and The Natural Balance, Avanti PLR model shoes which come in aluminum or steel.

Read up on these things and educate yourself as your current farrier is handing out a line of B.S. Because he/she doesn't know how to give proper care to these hooves:)

Hope this helps:)
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A Good Horseman Doesn't Have To Tell Anyone; The Horse Already Knows.

I CAN'T ride 'em n slide 'em. I HAVE to lead 'em n feed 'em Thnx cowchick77.
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post #5 of 10 Old 07-18-2019, 05:38 AM
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Hi,

If you'd like to post hoof pics, that would help. If you want to, check out the link in my signature before you do.

While the excess feed may well have caused laminitis and been the 'final straw', those rads tell me this horse has had long standing probs. Maybe combined with previous systemic laminitis, maybe just mechanical. Usually it's a combo.

Your rads show the bones are low within the capsule - or rather the walls have been pushed up around the bones. The toes are WAY long, and have been long for WAY long. I've drawn green lines to show where the toe walls 'should' be if they were well attached, parallel with the bone. As you can see, they're separated about 3/4 of the way up, and are a lot more further down. The blue lines at the toe show approx how I'd trim, to bring 'breakover' back & relieve those poor toes.

While precision is hard/impossible to gauge without xrays, there are a lot of 'signs' & 'landmarks' if the farrier understands what they're looking at, that will tell them just how far they can/should go. I would imagine that what I've shown would be relatively obvious with hoof in hand, without rads.

The right a/p aspect, I drew the green lines on that to show that the quarters have also 'gone splat' a while ago, and it seems the walls are high around the bony column. The right a/p aspect, I marked the red line around the 'ground surface' of P3 because I'm surprised to see such a lack of edge to it. Esp as the other isn't so bad and the lateral aspect shows the tips of P3 to be largely intact...

I'd be trimming this horse to relieve the toe ASAP, padding or keeping it on soft, yielding footing, and reducing heels as needed, gradually. Little & often trimming is important for rehab - I wouldn't leave her any longer than about 3-4 weeks max between trims.
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Celeste likes this.

Some info I've found helpful; [COLOR=Lime][B]www.horseforum.com/horse-health/hoof-lameness-info-horse-owners-89836/
For taking critique pics; [COLOR=Lime][B]https://www.horseforum.com/members/41...res-128437.jpg

Last edited by loosie; 07-18-2019 at 05:48 AM.
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post #6 of 10 Old 07-21-2019, 11:53 PM
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I agree - those toes didn't become that long overnight. I would get a different farrier out.
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post #7 of 10 Old 07-23-2019, 04:28 PM Thread Starter
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My hay is tested yearly through my local extension office, it’s typically 10-12% NSC. It is Timothy/orchard grass that my neighbor specifically cuts in the AM for me as my old guy is metabolic. How does one prevent cold weather laminitis in a state that gets extreme lows (Wisconsin?) While I was gone low temps were -25 to -45 at night with highs below zero, so maybe? But that’s not unusual for here and she hadn’t had an issue any other year. Prior to this the only issue she’s had with laminitis that I was aware of was a bout of anaplasmosis as a long yearling, she had a very high fever (105.5F) and I almost lost her, was on Doxy and banamine, she did develop some significant fever rings at that time.

Here are some pics after her trim. Right.
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post #8 of 10 Old 07-23-2019, 04:34 PM Thread Starter
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Left. If these aren’t sufficient I can take more, I didn’t realize some turned out blurry 😕
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post #9 of 10 Old 07-23-2019, 06:45 PM
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@Blue Smoke ,

1. Here's one credible article on cold weather laminitis. If you google, a lot of other credible articles will come up:)


https://www.paulickreport.com/horse-...ter-laminitis/

2. If that is a fresh trim, there is still room for improvement on the farrier's part:)

There is still too much toe and some flaring. More hoof could come off (unless the horse is really sensitive to heel height, then trimming needs to be gradual but more frequent so as to make progress).

2.1 The roll on the toe could safely be more aggressive, IMO but I am not a professional.

My opinion is based on trimming my own horses for years, and what I see working for my foundered horse:). My horse wears a very aggressive roll and his hooves are happy that way --- many people might argue it's wrong but we have experimented and it's what works best for him, at this point in time. "At this point in time" being the operative:)

3. 10% - 12% NSC on your hay is pretty good.

4. Were she my horse, I would take her off anything in a bag that can be bought in a feed store because:

a). Too many calories
b). Soy is the protein source in nearly everything, unless you read the labels closely and it says alfalfa.
c). I might also consider taking her off any alfalfa for awhile.

4.1 I would, instead put her on https://horsetech.com/high-point-grass. It's a vit-min supplement that does NOT use soy as the protein source and does NOT have added iron. You would only use three ounces daily so virtually no calories. I use straight Timothy pellets as the carrier for it and the other needed supplements.

It costs ~86 cents daily.

5. MSM would be a good thing to add for inflammation. I am also a big fan of HorseTech's "BioFlax 20" supplement but it's not cheap either:(

When horses are foundered this bad, my experience is nothing cheap is going to help them:(
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A Good Horseman Doesn't Have To Tell Anyone; The Horse Already Knows.

I CAN'T ride 'em n slide 'em. I HAVE to lead 'em n feed 'em Thnx cowchick77.

Last edited by walkinthewalk; 07-23-2019 at 06:51 PM.
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post #10 of 10 Old 07-24-2019, 04:23 AM
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Drew on some of your pics to illustrate what I'm seeing. Please don't take anything as accurate - this is just to give you the idea.

Firstly, the prominent lines/ridges on the feet at many different levels indicate the horses have been having laminitic 'events' frequently over the last year at least. These may well have been 'mild' ones that didn't result in serious lameness, but it's been happening for a long time, this was not due to the person feeding the horses recently. As I think I said previously, that 'event' may just have been the 'final straw' - and the cold snap, if that were a factor, could have been the final straw, not that it was particularly severe or unusual.

While the side views aren't square, so can't show anything remotely accurate, the red lines should give you an idea at least. The very top of the hoof is generally close to parallel with P3 still, in all but the worst cases, and this is what I've emphasised with my lines - the hooves flare out, away from P3 not far down. This is one more indication that, short of a catastrophic sudden complete breakdown, the hooves have been foundered for quite some time.

On the white hoof, while pic is on an angle so again, not accurate, I've marked the heel to emphasise how long it is & forward of where it should be.

On the front-on pics I've again emphasised the angles & the flare of the walls, and on the white hoof, I emphasised the hairline, to show the centre dips down, which indicates P3 is on a much steeper angle than it may appear & the quarters are pushed up. This can be just in relation to toe angle, but is often about overloaded quarters. As the quarters are a bit too long, quite flared, and heels are high, I'd say 'both' for the reason the hairline is pushed up like that.

Sole shots. On the white hoof, you can see that heels are high & long & forward. Red line marks where heel platforms are and the green line, widest point of the frog is close to where they should be. Bars are also overlong. Black hoof heels don't look so run forward or quite as high(can't tell how high accurately from just that angle pic), but bars are quite overgrown.

Line at the toe of the white foot is *approx* where I imagine this foot 'should' finish. Red arcs on both sole pics is to emphasis where you can see the impression of P3 on the sole. Shows toes are very thin & stretched. On the white hoof, this P3 impression is obvious, but on the black hoof, it seemed a bit more so, and combined with the apex of frog fading into the flat sole, I'd say this toe sole is VERY thin.

So you can see, with significant & chronic probs, any little 'triggers' are likely to 'tip the scales'
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walkinthewalk and greentree like this.

Some info I've found helpful; [COLOR=Lime][B]www.horseforum.com/horse-health/hoof-lameness-info-horse-owners-89836/
For taking critique pics; [COLOR=Lime][B]https://www.horseforum.com/members/41...res-128437.jpg
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