Horse losing shoes - Page 7 - The Horse Forum
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post #61 of 109 Old 06-09-2019, 03:54 AM
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Right, got back to it...

Firstly OP, it's very likely been mentioned here before, but for Justin, look up lamenessprevention.org and study all you can there. Hoofrehab.com is also a great resource. I haven't bought 'that book' yet - do plan to, as another resource to loan to clients. Yes, whether or not you ever plan to do the job yourself, I believe it's SO important for owners to educate themselves. It's not just about being able to evaluate trimming jobs & choose good farriers(assuming they're available) but there is a lot about hoof health that is down to the owner, not a once-6-weekly visit from a farrier.

Re the pics, the hinds actually don't look terrible to me, front-to-back balance. They are both somewhat long & crushed forward heels, tho not sure how much is camera angle(yes, it is hard to get hoof pics 'just so'), as heel looks good on the left hind pic showing the crack. Bars also appear overgrown, not trimmed.

The right hind does appear too long toed, shallow angled, heels might be too low - but esp looking at the whole horse, I sus it is from something 'upstairs', maybe a hip or sacrum prob. So maybe a chiropractic vet would be helpful for that.

That left hind crack, I think the main thing - assuming bars & heels addressed correctly - is that I would be 'resecting' it & strongly bevelling at ground surface. I marked your pic, the blue line showing approx where I'd trim - keep the resect as narrow as possible, but take all infected tissue if poss. There does appear to be seedy all the way around, at the ground surface at least. This will need topical as well as farrier treatment.

I've marked one of the front-on back hoof pics, to emphasise how distorted the quarter walls have got. As said, hoof rings can be caused from a range of things, not necessarily at all alarming. I think that the rings being on all feet(tho looks like farrier has rasped surface & they're not so obvious on fores) indicates that they are systemic - diet change etc - but that they're so much worse on hinds, actually ridgy, esp at quarters, is due to mechanics/imbalance.

Fore feet balance seems pretty... ornary. Heels are high & crushed forward, especially it seems, the right fore, and toes are also quite 'stretched', esp it seems the right. **Look up 'high-low syndrome' as it's not necessarily right for both to be matching, force symmetry on feet tho. Bars also overgrown. I marked red lines for the probs, green for where I imagine the toe walls should be if they were well attached. Oh and the left fore medial shot, I marked the hairline on that one to emphasise the dip at the front - this indicates P3 angle is likely too steep, pointing down at the toe, &/or that pressure at the quarters is 'jamming' the hairline upwards.

Shoes are flat bottomed & toes are set to the toe wall where it is now, so it seems some way forward of 'breakover', although(an illustration that you can't rely on pics alone) the sole shots make it seem there is little 'stretching' forward. As heels are obviously run forward but the heels of the shoes go way back to the widest part of the frog, there must be quite a bit of 'overhang' for the horse to be able to step on. The shoes also aren't quite straight, particularly the right one, the lateral bar is bent quite a bit further in & over the frog.

So... I hope these observations help you some, to learn what you're looking at & insight into what may be needed.
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UpNorthEq likes this.

Some info I've found helpful; [COLOR=Lime][B]www.horseforum.com/horse-health/hoof-lameness-info-horse-owners-89836/
For taking critique pics; [COLOR=Lime][B]https://www.horseforum.com/members/41...res-128437.jpg
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post #62 of 109 Old 06-09-2019, 07:42 AM Thread Starter
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Thank you so much for all that info @loosie . I will need some time to re read and fully digest it. That quarter crack has already been carved out years ago (curious not questioning your advice). With it already being carved 2 x before by 2 diff farriers. What is the purpose of re carving it again? As it freaks a lot of riding folk out (they think my horses foot will fall off or something. )
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"Your fear often contains your greatest growth."
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post #63 of 109 Old 06-09-2019, 08:35 AM
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@UpNrthEq; , are you able to watch youtube on your phone?

I think it important to always be mindful that the horse actually owes us nothing at all and it is we who owe the horse. "It's a goal"
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post #64 of 109 Old 06-09-2019, 08:57 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo View Post
@UpNrthEq; , are you able to watch youtube on your phone?

"Your fear often contains your greatest growth."
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post #65 of 109 Old 06-09-2019, 09:01 AM
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BTW, an injury to the coronary band sometimes can cause a permanent life long crack in the hoof wall, as I've read. The crack does not cause any particular problem other than being an avenue for infection which is a problem. Even if not infected, it probably should be cleaned and treated topically perhaps weekly or so.


If the crack were developed from an infected white line, in my experience it would be much wider after having traveled that far upward.


The book has a discussion titled "Get This Straight" with a picture of a dip in the coronet similar to your horse's. They suggest this indicates the coffin bone has descended within the hoof capsule. Looking at the external of the hoof, I would not be surprised.


I want to mention this, and not to paint a dark picture. I'm guessing the horse will be able to fully recover to healthy feet with the proper care provided by a knowledgeable hoof care provider. But it take close to a year or longer for a new hoof wall to fully grow out top to bottom. And it could take two growth cycles for the hoof to fully recover.


But with proper care, I'd guess that within 6 months there will be a huge huge change in the way the horse moves and feels.


I'll also mention that in re-reading the section on Weak Walls, my own personal take away was that if there is compromised blood circulation in the hoof, which your horse surely has, even if the feed is perfectly balanced by a professional nutritionist, the hoof will still not receive the nutrients needed to grow strong hoof walls as there is simply not enough blood flowing to carry the amount needed.

I think it important to always be mindful that the horse actually owes us nothing at all and it is we who owe the horse. "It's a goal"
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post #66 of 109 Old 06-09-2019, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by UpNorthEq View Post
already being carved 2 x before by 2 diff farriers. What is the purpose of re carving it again? As it freaks a lot of riding folk out (they think my horses foot will fall off or something. )
It (likely) needs to be 'carved out' to be able to effectively get at & so treat the infection. If when it was done last, it wasn't effectively treated, &/or the hoof wasn't well balanced/trimmed, so the mechanics perpetuated the crack, so it didn't grow out. So these things need to be done again properly, if you want to get rid of it.

BTW @Hondo I thought it was in this thread but somewhere recently I explained to Gotta that I don't believe a Crack through the hairline is permanant - at least if it is its very rare & I have fixed many longstanding supposedly incurable cracks.

And no, just because it is infected, or even that it started with infection, doesn't mean it should be wider or anything.

Regarding circulation, yes I'd guess those feet also have compromised circulation. But compared with the amount of blood travelling through the foot, they need very little of that to 'feed' the tissue, in my understanding (which on this note mostly comes from Dr Bowker) & it's not likely to be compromised to anywhere like that degree, and if it were they would be quite weak, cruddy looking hooves, from lack of growth. They have issues for sure, but I don't think they look like cruddy weak feet.

Some info I've found helpful; [COLOR=Lime][B]www.horseforum.com/horse-health/hoof-lameness-info-horse-owners-89836/
For taking critique pics; [COLOR=Lime][B]https://www.horseforum.com/members/41...res-128437.jpg
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post #67 of 109 Old 06-09-2019, 05:24 PM
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loosie I'll leave you to argue with the book when you get it. The authors quote and refer to Dr. Bowker all over the place giving me the impression they are very much up on him. Not sure if the the comments on poor circulation being a major contributor to weak walls came directly from Dr. Bowker, but they seem to have most of their duckies in a row and I'm sure would be up to taking you to task on your suggestion that the hoof "probably" gets enough blood even if circulation is compromised.


I don't want the OP to be led in this direction unless studies show compromised circulation doesn't matter.


Not wanting to start a tiff, just defending the book which you haven't yet read.


Chapter 10 of the book beginning on page 134, Cracks, Bruises, Abscesses, and Puncture Wounds begins with a thorough discussion on the various sources of cracks and associated treatment.


Serious coronet damage is one source mentioned. One picture shows a crack in a dip in the front of the coronet band formed from corrective shoeing to correct the dip. A second picture shows the healing done by a different farrier using different method.


It is a very good book and is not based on just the authors experience although one is a lettered farrier. Most of the information comes from a compilation of others in the field. The acknowledgements in the back of the book reads like who's who of equine hoof care specialist and researchers. They are all there.

I think it important to always be mindful that the horse actually owes us nothing at all and it is we who owe the horse. "It's a goal"
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post #68 of 109 Old 06-09-2019, 05:30 PM
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Quote:
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And no, just because it is infected, or even that it started with infection, doesn't mean it should be wider or anything.

I didn't say that @loosie . I said if the infection started at the white line and moved upward from there, it would be wider than shown in the picture posted. The infection does not eat away going in a straight up vertical line. They eat in every direction there is food to chew on in the absence of oxygen. I've dealt with a few of these in a herd of 23 horses I mostly lived with for 5 years. They are always wider at the bottom.



So I stand by my statement about the crack not having originated at the white line.

I think it important to always be mindful that the horse actually owes us nothing at all and it is we who owe the horse. "It's a goal"
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post #69 of 109 Old 06-09-2019, 05:45 PM
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Yes I am!

This link has a list of videos that were shown several years ago on the Rick Lamb Horse Show.


The farrier in the videos is Gene Ovincek who founded E.L.P.O and wrote the Forward for Essential Hoof.


These videos will provide an excellent jump start for you while waiting for THE BOOK.


He actually lives not that far from me during the winter when he's not off giving talks somewhere.


About 4 years ago I spotted his truck in the parking lot for the local hardware, looked and there he was walking toward the truck. I got to meet him and shake his hand. He has helped a lot of horses and helped a lot of people help their horses.


https://www.edsshoofcare.com/hoofcaretoday---videos

I think it important to always be mindful that the horse actually owes us nothing at all and it is we who owe the horse. "It's a goal"
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post #70 of 109 Old 06-09-2019, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo View Post
I didn't say that @loosie . I said if the infection started at the white line and moved upward from there, it would be wider than shown in the picture posted. The infection does not eat away going in a straight up vertical line. They eat in every direction there is food to chew on in the absence of oxygen. I've dealt with a few of these in a herd of 23 horses I mostly lived with for 5 years. They are always wider at the bottom.

So I stand by my statement about the crack not having originated at the white line.
BTW Hondo, I am assuming by 'white line' you are meaning the ground surface? 'White line' ime generally refers to the inner wall & to some people the laminae.

Agree fully it is *often* the case that cracks are wider at the bottom, esp as mechanics are often working against it too. Regardless where they originated. And *depending on specifics* a long standing crack, regardless where it started is generally not just a dead straight, narrow vertical infection. One reason resecting often necessary.

My disagreement was just with you saying 'it will be wider' and assuming that means it can't have started at the bottom(not that it's effectively important to op anyway). And with this post that you say 'they are always wider', when you also point out you have only dealt with a few. It is just not correct to make that blanket assumption.

As for arguing your Book, I am not at all, haven't even read it. I was simply saying from my education & experienced, that a couple of the things you stated aren't fully correct.
UpNorthEq likes this.

Some info I've found helpful; [COLOR=Lime][B]www.horseforum.com/horse-health/hoof-lameness-info-horse-owners-89836/
For taking critique pics; [COLOR=Lime][B]https://www.horseforum.com/members/41...res-128437.jpg
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