Horse losing shoes - Page 8 - The Horse Forum
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post #71 of 109 Old 06-09-2019, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loosie View Post

You: 'it will be wider'

Me: And I stand by that.

You: from my education & experienced, that a couple of the things you stated aren't fully correct.


Me: If the 'other' is the foot circulation thing, Dr. Bowker is THE foot circulation specialist in the world, so you may be stating that from your education and experience something Dr. Bowker said is not fully correct.

Do you REALLY want to do that?



(To clarify, bolded portion of above quote is @Hondo 's remarks, not a direct quote of @loosie )


I think the best way to approach this type of disagreement is not for one person to say the other is incorrect etc but to rather just state what one believes, give the source be it experience, formal education, or an experts opinion and leave it at that without addressing the person who's opinion differs.


That is what this forum is about. Expressing our own personal beliefs, opinions, or what ever. EACH of us.


And not challenging what the other says.


Each state what we think and let the OP decide.
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Last edited by tinyliny; 06-10-2019 at 02:10 PM.
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post #72 of 109 Old 06-09-2019, 10:14 PM
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The hoof growth rings on laminitic horses, horses with severely under slung heels and long toes, and foundered horses; curve downward in the heel area and are wider at the heel than at the toe.


The curvature and the wider rings at the heel result from a faster growth rate at the heels than at the toe. Normally in a healthy foot, the entire capsule grows downward at the same rate.


The narrower rings in the front are the result of compromised blood flow to the front of the hoof by a descended and or rotated coffin bone that invariably accompanies the three maladies mentioned above.


Since the heels do not sink, the blood flow in that area is not compromised and growth continues at a normal rate.


The toes simply do not have enough blood flow to carry adequate groceries for normal toe growth and healthy wall growth.
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post #73 of 109 Old 06-10-2019, 01:05 AM
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Quote:
You: 'it will be wider'
Hondo, it was YOU that said that. I agreed that this is often the case. But as you stated it, as a blanket statement, it IS incorrect. As you're obviously so adamant it isn't, then please explain why you have this belief. And I will find you some pics... I have a few specific cases in mind of client's horses. Basically, if there is any mechanical pressure on the crack, it does tend to be levered further open at the base, regardless where it may have started. If there is no mechanical force acting against the wall/crack, then it tends to stay closed/narrow.

As to the other 'disagreement' about cracks thru hairline being permanent, I believe I said something like it wasn't *entirely* correct. That IME they were indeed fixable as a rule, though conceivably, in rare situations they may not. I think I gave more info in my reply to Gotta about this.

Re "'other' is the foot circulation thing,", I don't actually understand what you're saying, except that it seems you're trying to say I'm disagreeing with what Bowker has said, to discredit me(not that I think anyone's infallible & should be taken on blind faith, but that's irrelevant here). But on the contrary, I have not said anything of the sort! Just the opposite in fact! Basically I said that most of my information about circulation in the feet comes from Bowker, and that the vast majority of blood flow is NOT needed to feed the hoof, and that if it were compromised to the great extent that it did restrict/damage growth, then in OP's horse, there would be evidence of weak walls, etc. By all means, if you have read something that contradicts this, from Bowker or otherwise, I am all ears!! Please tell me what that is, rather than just arguing about it though.

Please also provide information about what you have stated in your last post above, as this is also a bit... contrary to what I have learned.
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Some info I've found helpful; [COLOR=Lime][B]www.horseforum.com/horse-health/hoof-lameness-info-horse-owners-89836/
For taking critique pics; [COLOR=Lime][B]https://www.horseforum.com/members/41...res-128437.jpg

Last edited by loosie; 06-10-2019 at 05:35 AM.
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post #74 of 109 Old 06-10-2019, 10:22 AM
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I first learned of the wider hoof rings at the heel caused by more rapid growth at the heel around 4 years ago from a post by Patty Stiller, an E.L.P.O. farrier of outstanding and unusual experience, knowledge, and education.


Since then, the same information has been encountered in countless places.


More recently was in a video by Gene Ovnicek demonstrating the application of the EDSS Steward Clog where he mentions how much more heel he has been removing than at the toe due to compromised circulation.



And also in The Essential Hoof Book. Page 51 posted above shows a foot with wider growth rings at the heels.


A one sentence quote from the very next page, "A more insidious issue that may very well be at the heart of many cases of chronic weak walls is compromised circulation within the foot."



I have never ever read any challenge to what appears to be these established facts. If anyone knows of any, pleas provide.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=CYS0fERpCXA

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Last edited by Hondo; 06-10-2019 at 10:27 AM.
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post #75 of 109 Old 06-10-2019, 12:41 PM
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Page 193 of THE BOOK shows two venograms, one of a healthy foot and one with acute laminitis where the coffin has pulled away from the hoof capsule which of course happens with severely out of balance feet.


The two images show how drastically the blood flow is reduced by rotation or sinking.

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post #76 of 109 Old 06-10-2019, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UpNorthEq View Post
Ok so I made an album. As it is A lot of pictures to post here. Unfortuneatly they are in a mumbled jumbled order. But they are labeled so hopefully people can figure them out. Again not interested in hearing "get a new farrier" tell me what I need to tell my farrier to fix/correct in their work so I can counter that and give them the chance to improve.

Nice lookin' horse OP! (coming from a fellow barrel racer)


I'm sorry you are having such problems with farriers in your area, because man your poor horse's feet are a mess. That may very well be why she is always pulling shoes is because her poor feet are so terribly imbalanced. Heck, I've got a GOOD farrier and two of mine have gone through bouts of pulling shoes. My horse Dexter just got put in 2 degree wedge pads with his front shoes to help alleviate some pain from navicular changes. We've been back TWICE since having them put on 4 weeks ago, because he pulled the left one off last week and the right one off just on Friday. (both in the pasture, not while riding) Red also went through a period for about a year where he was pulling or bending shoes about once a week ... until I figured out his stifle and hock were sore. Got those better and then the shoe pulling stopped.


Obviously your horse's feet need to be better but I also want to ask if you ever have taken her in for a lameness exam? Sometimes when they are compensating for something, it makes them "scramble" more than they would and more likely to catch a shoe.


Of course, be prepared for your farrier to not listen to you and do what he always does anyway. Honestly, if you have to tell him how to do his job right, he probably doesn't care in the first place.....


I'm not a farrier and I'm probably not good as saying the "correct terminology" with shoeing/trimming, but I know enough to know that your current and prior farriers have been doing your horse a huge disservice. If you were seriously thinking about learning how to do it yourself, I'd do it sooner rather than later! Yes, she has long toes and long heels, among other things.



I have a good farrier so I will happily pay him for his services for my TWO horses that require special corrective shoeing. But if I were in your shoes where I couldn't find someone good, that would be really good motivation to learn to do it myself. I can do a decent barefoot trim myself already (although I'm super slow) but not shoes.

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post #77 of 109 Old 06-10-2019, 01:55 PM
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MODERATOR NOTE:

@beau159 Thank you for steering this thread back into the intended direction.

As for the interesting off-topic debate that is currently being discussed within this thread - it would be appreciated if it can be started in a thread of it's own.
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post #78 of 109 Old 06-10-2019, 05:52 PM
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Op I think this thread - where we are discussing cracks, would be helpful...
https://www.horseforum.com/hoof-care...jumper-804477/
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Some info I've found helpful; [COLOR=Lime][B]www.horseforum.com/horse-health/hoof-lameness-info-horse-owners-89836/
For taking critique pics; [COLOR=Lime][B]https://www.horseforum.com/members/41...res-128437.jpg
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post #79 of 109 Old 06-10-2019, 06:46 PM
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@UpNorthEq If you do wind up taking care of your own horse's feet, a farrier makes it look really easy. The right tools make it a little easier. Sharp nippers, a good rasp, and I would like to suggest a sole rasp. I can't link from my phone, but you can google it. Much easier to use than a hoof knife, and it can help take off excess bar and dead built-up sole.

One other suggestion is to google a bull-nosed hind hoof. Even though they are not in as dire need of fixing as the fronts, they should not be overlooked as it affects movement and usage of the hindquarters. Long term could cause lameness in hocks or stifles. If you understand the mechanics of what causes the distortion, it will help you fix it.

I wish you much luck in your journey. I completely understand your frustration in farriers. I was blessed with an excellent farrier for years until he recently retired. I have pulled my hair out and had my jaw hit the ground many times trying to find a competent one. I still have not found one and do trimming myself. I'm r e a l l y slow, but I get it done. For shoes, I actually haul to the Amish (gasp!), but I already have the hoof properly shaped.
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post #80 of 109 Old 06-10-2019, 08:31 PM
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^never used a sole rasp so don't kno how particular you can get. I find that nips, esp if you have half rounds are good for 'stubborn' overgrown bar, find a loop knife allows me to carefully remove what may be needed underneath without taking what's not - I think it's *generally* best to leave the dead sole there.

Yes, re bull nosed hinds, this can signify 'negative plantar angles' tho I'm not sure that's happening here - can't be sure just from pics & without rads anyway.

For a farrier to cause this will indeed cause body issues(just try walking in low heeled, raised toe shoes!), but I think ime it's more the opposite, that body issues cause this hoof imbalance. Eg many OT horses have low/negative angles in hinds & this seems to be due to pelvic issues, commonly caused from working babies so hard. As it's only one hind on OP's horse & acknowledged pelvic probs, I think this is a body issue & possibly the hoof just needs to be managed like that.

Some info I've found helpful; [COLOR=Lime][B]www.horseforum.com/horse-health/hoof-lameness-info-horse-owners-89836/
For taking critique pics; [COLOR=Lime][B]https://www.horseforum.com/members/41...res-128437.jpg
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