Horse losing shoes - Page 9 - The Horse Forum
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post #81 of 109 Old 06-10-2019, 07:42 PM
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UpNorthEq , I'm hesitant to suggest this as you may not be at the point to be ready to think about it.


But at some point, you may want to think about, if possible, to obtain lateral x-rays of the two fores. Lateral means from the out side of each front hoof.


For proper analysis of the "phlangeal" alignment, meaning P1/P2/>P3, the cannon bone must be vertical during the x-ray. This can only be achieved if both feet are elevated to the same height.


My veterinarian doesn't do this so I attached two wooden blocks to the bottom of two boots. EDSS sells them but they are close to $300.



Many veterinarians, mine included, only elevate one hoof at a time for the x-rays which causes a natural misalignment of the phalanges bones. It's sort of like keeping your knee straight with your foot resting on a step.


Here is an informative article on understanding xrays from the laminitis site. I realize your horse may not have laminitis but the problems associated with the configuration shown by your horse does apply.



The Laminitis Site - Search Results




The big things to learn are the location of the tip of P3 with regard to the front of the hoof wall, the bony alignment, and any disconnection of P3 from the hoof capsule. A wire or similar should be placed at the lowest hair follicle of the hair line to determine hoof decent if any.


The link explains it better than I. The x-rays will be an invaluable guide to the correct trimming needed for the most efficient recovery from past farrier neglect.

I think it important to always be mindful that the horse actually owes us nothing at all and it is we who owe the horse. "It's a goal"
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post #82 of 109 Old 06-11-2019, 09:57 PM
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Hi UpNorthEq,


I tried to friend you and can't message you privately. I stumbled over your post randomly and feel like I might be able to help. I actually spent some time typing up a 'plan' you can read over and see if it might work. I was going to post it here, but I feel like this discussion kind of galloped away. I'd still like to help.



"Seems like everyone here has made the assumption that I dont care/Haven't tried a lot of these options and suggestions (which was my fear in hesitating to post.) I have. This is my best horse. Believe me when I say I have tried almost everything and her feet are still just medicore. Aside from her feet . This is a really really good horse. Who could not want for anything in her life."


And that's the kind of challenge I want to help with, and the kind of person I want to help. Message me if interested. = )
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No diet, no hoof. No hoof, no horse. No horse is not an option!

Last edited by tinyliny; 06-11-2019 at 10:55 PM.
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post #83 of 109 Old 06-12-2019, 02:42 PM Thread Starter
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Horse has already had X rays of front feet that were well within normal. I've thought of re doing them this year. I am so stressed out. Rode today walking for 20 minutes trotted and loped for 10 minutes (not much. ) then walked again. Heard plop. Looked down. Shoe is gone. A lot of this discussion has been overwhelming to say the least. This horse sees chiro regularly and does not have pelvic "problems" (not sure where that came from)?. She has tight muscles in her glutes. But besides that has no major issues. She moves well. Is sound. She naturally is a very tense horse and we do massage and stretches and work on relaxing and bending.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo View Post
UpNorthEq , I'm hesitant to suggest this as you may not be at the point to be ready to think about it.


But at some point, you may want to think about, if possible, to obtain lateral x-rays of the two fores. Lateral means from the out side of each front hoof.


For proper analysis of the "phlangeal" alignment, meaning P1/P2/>P3, the cannon bone must be vertical during the x-ray. This can only be achieved if both feet are elevated to the same height.


My veterinarian doesn't do this so I attached two wooden blocks to the bottom of two boots. EDSS sells them but they are close to $300.



Many veterinarians, mine included, only elevate one hoof at a time for the x-rays which causes a natural misalignment of the phalanges bones. It's sort of like keeping your knee straight with your foot resting on a step.


Here is an informative article on understanding xrays from the laminitis site. I realize your horse may not have laminitis but the problems associated with the configuration shown by your horse does apply.



The Laminitis Site - Search Results




The big things to learn are the location of the tip of P3 with regard to the front of the hoof wall, the bony alignment, and any disconnection of P3 from the hoof capsule. A wire or similar should be placed at the lowest hair follicle of the hair line to determine hoof decent if any.


The link explains it better than I. The x-rays will be an invaluable guide to the correct trimming needed for the most efficient recovery from past farrier neglect.
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"Your fear often contains your greatest growth."
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post #84 of 109 Old 06-12-2019, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UpNorthEq View Post
Horse has already had X rays of front feet that were well within normal. I've thought of re doing them this year. I am so stressed out. Rode today walking for 20 minutes trotted and loped for 10 minutes (not much. ) then walked again. Heard plop. Looked down. Shoe is gone. A lot of this discussion has been overwhelming to say the least. This horse sees chiro regularly and does not have pelvic "problems" (not sure where that came from)?. She has tight muscles in her glutes. But besides that has no major issues. She moves well. Is sound. She naturally is a very tense horse and we do massage and stretches and work on relaxing and bending.

I am so sorry this thread stressed you out. Please relax and take comfort knowing that you are doing everything in your knowledge to help your horse. We learn everyday about horses, so now you have new knowledge to try something new.

You have a very nicely conformed horse to my eye. One I would keep in my pasture most definitely. Her bull nosed hinds are caused by underrun heels, not confo or lameness. That's what I meant when I said if you understand what caused them you can fix them. I feel like if I pinpoint something, I will immediately get corrected.

As for x-rays, I bought a horse that had feet like this. X-rays showed no rotation, only stretched and dished toes. Up to you if you want to spend the money since every horse is different. I fixed my horse within 6 months and kept him barefoot the entire time so I could do a little shaping every 2 weeks. Kept the heels facing the ground and a good roll to the toe to keep the stress off of it. The more stress, the more pull and stretch. And he was rideable the entire 6 months. Once her feet are growing in the correct direction, I bet she will hold a shoe just fine.

Relax and breathe. There is hope! If I could do it, I know you can too.
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post #85 of 109 Old 06-12-2019, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UpNorthEq View Post
Horse has already had X rays of front feet that were well within normal. I've thought of re doing them this year. I am so stressed out. Rode today walking for 20 minutes trotted and loped for 10 minutes (not much. ) then walked again. Heard plop. Looked down. Shoe is gone. A lot of this discussion has been overwhelming to say the least. This horse sees chiro regularly and does not have pelvic "problems" (not sure where that came from)?. She has tight muscles in her glutes. But besides that has no major issues. She moves well. Is sound. She naturally is a very tense horse and we do massage and stretches and work on relaxing and bending.
Don't stress about this thread. You are doing you're best you asked for help and got a lot of good help. I get the trying to find a good farrier, sounds easy but truly isn't.

I finally got a good farrier and he made a huge difference in just one trim. Farrier before was an idiot was making my one horse lame my black gelding. He was getting naughty when being shod. Unlike him last time this farrier did him he kicked at him.

New farrier both horses were better behaved. Black gelding was being hot nailed on regular basis. Was evident when new guy pulled his shoes, huge abcess had blown out. He's still not good about the nailing on of shoes. But will take time for him to learn it's not going to hurt.

I know you can do this it's possible to find a good farrier. If not learn all you can and trim horse's you're self. Keep hunting for a farrier, there has to be one out there that's good.

I got real lucky to find current farrier he's a keeper he's really good with the horse's, and does good work.
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post #86 of 109 Old 06-12-2019, 07:41 PM
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UpNorth, I - and I believe a lot here know how you feel, from first-hand experience! We have all come from a position of no knowledge, trusting 'experts', until there are issues, and we've learned - often been shocked by just how much we need to learn or the condition of our horse's feet - differently. And we're all in different stages of that 'journey'. The best any of us can do for our horses is with the best knowledge we have at the time, and an open mind to keep learning. So don't ever knock yourself if you find out later that you were wrong in something or other, just congratulate yourself for finding out better! And don't take anyone's word for stuff blindly, regardless the source, but use opinions & info for further consideration.

As to your horse, I don't think her feet look terrible, but there are some significant things to fix, IMO, which I pointed out. And itquite possibly could all be fixed easily with a few good trims... I understand how overwhelming it can be to be suddenly 'thrown' all these opinions! Just remember, your horse's feet aren't going to fall off, even if the shoes are. Of course, the sooner you start addressing the probs the better, but they are not even likely to get significantly worse in the short term if nothing changes, so you have time to breath & learn, without having to feel like you're 'under the pump'. So on that note, with your farrier too, you might not even want to bring stuff up next visit, but just 'sleep on it' for a bit & learn more first.

Lack of good farriers seems to be a world-wide common thing, and why many of us have learned to do the job in the first place - I never had any intention of becoming a hoof care practitioner decades ago when I started learning all this! Whether you plan to do the job yourself, or keep using a farrier, I personally believe it's invaluable for people to learn how to do it, if only for 'emergencies' or 'brush up' trims between farrier visits.

Re the "does not have pelvic "problems" (not sure where that came from" - Great that she doesn't! That was me suggested that, but pretty sure I said something like she could have a pelvic problem that could be the cause of her hind foot angles, particularly the right. That it's possible. If I wasn't clear before, please pardon. Hope that's ironed it out.

Re to get xrays or not, IMO they're always interesting to have, and sometimes necessary. Purely based on those pics, I wouldn't personally worry about rads atm. *I am not saying you shouldn't get them though. Just that me, with this little bit of info here, can't see a burning need. I am including some diagrams, to give you a *rough* idea how to 'read' your horse's feet better, as to where internal structures are/should be. Hope it helps.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg bone in cap align.jpg (91.9 KB, 1 views)
UpNorthEq likes this.

Some info I've found helpful; [COLOR=Lime][B]www.horseforum.com/horse-health/hoof-lameness-info-horse-owners-89836/
For taking critique pics; [COLOR=Lime][B]https://www.horseforum.com/members/41...res-128437.jpg
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post #87 of 109 Old 06-12-2019, 08:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UpNorthEq View Post
I am so stressed out.

Join the club. Really!!


I studied and studied for almost five years now to learn about feet. My toe walking horse developed a strong heel first landing and developed significant concavity.


While all this was going on my horse was gaining weight and gaining weight and gaining weight. A person with a severe anti-social personality disorder decided to founder my horse to teach me a lesson. It did.


When he became sound enough for a trip to get x-ray'd, I mentioned that though he was calm he was sweating so he must be very scared in the enclosed room. When I saw the x-rays with rotation and sinkage, I began to feel wetness on my own back.


I have been freaked out for most of the last 8 months. 10 or 20 years ago he would have been euthanized.


So when I heard you mention a fear that people would say to euthanize him, I sort of pulled out all the stops. I may have over done it, hope not. But as you say, fear, which is a little like stress, can contain our greatest growth. I mean that in a nice supportive way.


Loosie doesn't seem to think they are all THAT bad but to me they sure look like it will take a full growth cycle to straighten out. But the cause of the flaky walls has to be figured out somehow. Depending on what is going on inside the hoof, a growth cycle with proper trimming could do it. It sounds like you've covered all the other basis.



But whatever, the important thing I think is that the consensus of all that have posted is that the feet are definitely fixable and euthanasia as the vet recommended is completely out of the question.



Is it possible to post the pictures of the x-rays from last year. I, for one, would sure like to see them. They should tell a lot, but possibly not.


I had a vet tell me Hondo's feet were fine a year prior to his founder. After studying x-rays and learning how to measure decent on x-rays, he already had half the decent he has a year later. He may have either foundered before or had been shod and left to develop long toes and under slung heels which will also cause decent. He was 13 when coming into my care.


I have been told so many things by so-called professionals that I am now very cautious about taking what I'm told at face value.


You SHALL get through this and your horse will be fine and you will know so much more and will be able to help others as well. Fact!
loosie likes this.

I think it important to always be mindful that the horse actually owes us nothing at all and it is we who owe the horse. "It's a goal"
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post #88 of 109 Old 06-12-2019, 09:01 PM
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Page 60 of the Essential Hoof Book "says" that a dip in the front center coronet indicates decent of P3.


The coronet in the picture shown below appears to be straight but there is a huge dip in the growth rings. Something is causing that.


dip.jpg

I think it important to always be mindful that the horse actually owes us nothing at all and it is we who owe the horse. "It's a goal"
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post #89 of 109 Old 06-12-2019, 09:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo View Post
Page 60 of the Essential Hoof Book "says" that a dip in the front center coronet indicates decent of P3.


The coronet in the picture shown below appears to be straight but there is a huge dip in the growth rings. Something is causing that.


Attachment 989887
Since there is no dip in the coronet and the front of the hoof is bulled relieving breakover pressure, I am willing to guess that the abundance of flair on the sides is pushing upward taking the brunt of the weight. The heels are crushed so weight bearing surfaces are skewed.
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post #90 of 109 Old 06-12-2019, 10:21 PM
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Yeah, I wouldn't like to say anything definite about exact position of P3 just from these pics - that would need to be ascertained by a vet & rads. But re dip at the front in the 'growth rings' I'd be more inclined to think was as TeeZee suggested. Whereas the 2 pics here I think show what Hondo is talking about. *It also may still be that the quarter hairline is being pushed *up* rather than P3 angled down though. But this combined with other things to me is an indication that P3 is on a steeper than ideal angle.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg user80282_pic129629_1559832276.jpg (125.6 KB, 35 views)
File Type: jpg user80282_pic129657_1559832569.jpg (109.4 KB, 34 views)

Some info I've found helpful; [COLOR=Lime][B]www.horseforum.com/horse-health/hoof-lameness-info-horse-owners-89836/
For taking critique pics; [COLOR=Lime][B]https://www.horseforum.com/members/41...res-128437.jpg

Last edited by loosie; 06-12-2019 at 10:28 PM.
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