Low/High Dilemma - Critique? - Page 11 - The Horse Forum
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post #101 of 124 Old 12-19-2017, 06:28 PM Thread Starter
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Thank you @loosie , it is hard to swallow that Tyra will need pads. But I believe this is what new farrier is going to say, as well, as friend's horse has a grade 4 club and he padded both feet for frog support and to encourage frog pressure on club. His feet are doing MUCH better, but it is an incredibly slow process.

It sounds like this farrier's knowledge is not the knowledge we need. I appreciate you telling me he IS trying, I wouldn't want to think he is deliberately harming my horse.

I will ask new farrier about pour-in pads, hopefully eventually she can make the transition back to rim shoes when she is ready.
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post #102 of 124 Old 12-19-2017, 11:22 PM Thread Starter
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post #103 of 124 Old 12-19-2017, 11:54 PM
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Ahh , you found Pete Ramey, one of the first two re habilative barefoot trimmers I came across and studied, when my gelding's needs led me that way, down a path of becoming informed, versus just trusting farriers
What Pete is basically saying, is he did not arbitrarily trim those feet to try and match any angles, part of old farrier type approach, but instead obeyed live sole, while trimming the foot as live sole allowed, to become as close to normal functioning as possible
In other words, the land marks are not the outer hoof capsule, but rather based on live sole, breakover, depth of collateral grooves. The hoof then, over successive trims becomes a more functional foot, with sole depth, healthy back of the foot,good connection, that has a functional frog, digital cushion, a foot that can then land comfortably heel first, without protection.
The angles will never match on those feet, but by maintaining both feet,so the club foot does not have a contracted heel , inactive frog, and the opposite one does not have a stretched toe and under run heels, they become functional feet, matching or not, or even obeying some arbitrary laws of angles that ignores the inner structure of those feet
I hope that helps. Loosie can most likely make it more exact, or explain it better.
In other words, he did not make a'normal foot out of the club foot, but he made that club foot the best it can be, to have the horse remain sound on it, versus some cosmetic outer appearance only

He also said he never 'went to war' with the angles, of either foot (ie, tried to make them match, regardless of live sole) accepted they had to be different, but that does not mean he did not improve either foot angle, much as that foot let him, while obeying live sole
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Last edited by Smilie; 12-19-2017 at 11:59 PM.
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post #104 of 124 Old 12-20-2017, 12:05 AM Thread Starter
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So I'm still rallying for farrier 1... trying to find every reason possible why I need to switch... I'm not trying to be difficult I just need to know for certain this farrier is doing more harm than good, before I got to farrier 2.

So if Farrier 1 is recognizing this hoof is not making contact with the ground (which he commented on), is beginning to trim the heels (which he said he was doing), but is trying to trim and shoe each foot individually (I understand trying to make the right-front shoe thinner in order to control flare is his plan...), does he need to be fired? We had a long talk about thrush. We still have thrush, he wants to see her again this next cycle to see if the new environment will clear it up completely. We came from VERY wet conditions. The farrier has shod her only twice in our new home. That is about 8 weeks total that we've been in dry conditions, and last cycle was a week after moving and so her feet were still about the same as at her old home.

If new home is going to bring about new change, good change, how many cycles should I expect to see the left front frog expand? If it doesn't happen by that time, it's time to get a new farrier?

I'm sorry... 14 months with old farrier working in a very bad environment.... I don't know if I can fault her feet for not getting well... she used to stand in manure, urine, and mud ALL DAY LONG. Her new home is completely matted, cleaned twice a day, and her turnout stall is cleaned twice a day and the ground is soft. Horses not turned out when it is wet.
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post #105 of 124 Old 12-20-2017, 12:07 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks for your patience @Smilie ... just want you to know all the facts, all the variables, so that I can make the best decision possible and have no regrets.
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post #106 of 124 Old 12-20-2017, 12:16 AM Thread Starter
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@Smilie , these are pictures 1 week before her appointment in July, 2017. This was an 8 week cycle. Please tell me if we are on the mend or not:

left front



Right Front


Left front in September, 2016:


Grazing stance:

Last edited by thecolorcoal; 12-20-2017 at 12:21 AM.
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post #107 of 124 Old 12-20-2017, 12:27 AM Thread Starter
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Those growth rings, I believe, are the "white line" we are seeing now at the very base of the toe. I think they've grown all the way out. We had a HORRIBLE winter and spring filled because of an el nino. Her paddock flooded and so did her stall. It was terrible. It was wet from January until about May.
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post #108 of 124 Old 12-20-2017, 12:22 PM
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The front of the right hoof is bull-nosed and the rings are concerning. I would be concerned about some laminitic changes even if the rings are grown out now. Heels are badly underrun. If this was my horse, I'd be on the hunt for a GOOD barefoot trimmer to get those hooves functioning normally, investigate a diet change, and fire my farrier yesterday. 8 weeks is far too long for this mare. 3-4 weeks is probably what you should be doing, whether you keep shoes on her or not, at least until you get those issues addressed.
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post #109 of 124 Old 12-20-2017, 12:31 PM Thread Starter
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@SilverMaple , I still think you need to consider that these were her hooves from july and rehabilitative shoeing is not something that happens over night. her last trim was 6 weeks. 6 weeks, we've discovered, is about as long as she can soundly go. I'd prefer 4 weeks. My farrier will come out for a 4 week trim. Like I said I am still not willing to go barefoot because this is a competition horse and competitions do not allow boots. Nor is she sound in any way shape or form barefoot, and even if she was I cannot risk it.
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post #110 of 124 Old 12-20-2017, 09:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thecolorcoal View Post
So I'm still rallying for farrier 1... trying to find every reason possible why I need to switch... I'm not trying to be difficult I just need to know for certain this farrier is doing more harm than good, before I got to farrier 2.
Sorry to be devil's advocate, but if we assume no.1 is doing harm, what makes you believe no.2 will do better anyway?

Quote:
So if Farrier 1 is recognizing this hoof is not making contact with the ground (which he commented on), is beginning to trim the heels (which he said he was doing), but is trying to trim and shoe each foot individually (I understand trying to make the right-front shoe thinner in order to control flare is his plan...), does he need to be fired?
Not just on that note. Without knowing why/how much he wants to lower heels, what he's seeing/going off, who knows if it's wrong to do so. If he is purely trying to lower heels in order for the frog to have ground contact, without taking into consideration all factors - body issues as prev. mentioned for eg - then that will probably cause further probs.

I don't understand his reasoning really on the second count. Apart from thinner peripheral loading devices putting the base of the foot very marginally closer to the ground(assuming hard, flat ground), I can't think of any reason at all for this theory. Flares are happening because the hoof is not *trimmed* well, and because the horse is peripherally loaded - ie walls being forced into main weightbearing role with rigid rim shoes. A huge reason why I believe rim shoes are contraindicative in unhealthy hooves. Although I do also believe there are generally far better options than conventional steel rims anyway...

Quote:
Quote:
If new home is going to bring about new change, good change, how many cycles should I expect to see the left front frog expand? If it doesn't happen by that time, it's time to get a new farrier?
How long's a piece of string? Unfortunately there are too many factors to give a definite prognosis, let alone a time frame. For eg. it appears to be a chronic problem, don't know how old the horse is, how many years she's had the issue, been shod in rims, etc, etc, so even with best farriery, it's possible it will not EVER change. The other thing is, management, not just farriery & climate has a huge bearing - if she's kept stalled much(sounds like stalled full time?! - 'turnout stall'), not getting heaps of free movement every day on firm ground, then regardless of everything else, she will likely maintain contracted, weak heels.
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Some info I've found helpful; [COLOR=Lime][B]www.horseforum.com/horse-health/hoof-lameness-info-horse-owners-89836/
For taking critique pics; [COLOR=Lime][B]https://www.horseforum.com/members/41...res-128437.jpg
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