Navicular diagnosis -hoof shape not typical - Page 2 - The Horse Forum
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post #11 of 17 Old 08-19-2019, 06:11 PM
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First of all OP, I apologize for derailing your thread.......

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Originally Posted by walkinthewalk View Post
Yes, I do, lol
No you don't. So let me clarify:

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Originally Posted by walkinthewalk View Post
If I need cataract surgery, which I'm sure I do by now, I'm going to the opthamologist
In the United States, optometrists CANNOT perform cataract surgery. Even if you wanted to have an optometrist to perform cataract surgery, they can't. It's beyond our scope of practice and optometrists will NEVER perform cataract surgery. Major surgery is not part of optometry and that means optometrists do not and will not perform things like LASIK surgery, retinal surgery, etc.

Scope of practice will vary state to state based on individual state law ( for example Oklahoma optometrist can do quite a few more things than other states, such as laser procedures), but major surgery still will never be something optometry does. Because that's not optometry.

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Originally Posted by walkinthewalk View Post
I went to optometrists for years -- and years, who are trained to diagnose various eye issues.
.....AND TREAT many eye issues. (not just diagnose) The medical list is endless of the things optometrists are qualified and capable of treating.

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Originally Posted by walkinthewalk View Post
Now I visit an opthamologist, who is generally an MD with more training than an optometrist to qualify that person to perform eye surgery on the diagnosis the optometrist might have made
In this day and age, really, the only difference between an optometrist and an ophthalmologist is that the ophthalmologist can do major surgery that involves sticking knives or needles into the eye. But that's it. For example, I can diagnose, treat, and manage a glaucoma patient just as well as an MD. The only caveat is if the patient requires a glaucoma surgery, which of course then they are referred for the surgery. I can also diagnose and manage a macular degeneration patient just as well as an MD (I left out "treatment" because there really isn't treatment available yet), unless they need an injection for wet AMD, and then they get referred for an injection. I can remove metal from the front of the eye, so long as it is superficial. I can diagnose cataracts, refer when necessary, and handle the post-operative care after the surgery. Same with LASIK. Etc and so forth.

So again, the only difference is the surgery aspect. Optometrist can and do handle everything else, and are qualified to do so. I earned a doctorate too, just like the ophthalmologist. (I also get to spend 30-45 minutes with my patients instead of 5 minutes, which I greatly enjoy.) Optometry and ophthalmology work greatly hand-in-hand and compliment each other. As the baby boomers continue to age, ophthalmology continues to have more than it can handle. They need optometry to do the non-surgical medical care. Just as optometry needs ophthalmology, because they handle the surgical aspect that we don't do. But don't get the impression (or spread the impression) that optometry is LESSER than ophthalmology - because it is not.

Oh, and don't forget the other "h" in your spelling of ophthalmologist.


Okay, I'll get off my soap box now.
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post #12 of 17 Old 08-26-2019, 02:59 PM Thread Starter
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hmm, that's kind of funny. My son had surgery for the congenital cataracts that run in our family just this summer.

Anyway, the vet is really pushing for shoes, and i have asked him to provide the names of farriers he thinks are good and will come out just for her. In the meantime, she is due for a trim and i have reached out to a barefoot trimmer that has some experience with Navicular pain in some of her clients, although admittedly not all with the same diagnoses.

We'll see how it goes.
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post #13 of 17 Old 08-26-2019, 03:19 PM
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This makes me wish I had paid attention to the shoeing of the navicular three-year-old quarter horse the lameness vet had at the clinic at the same time my foundered horse would go in for evaluation, x-rays and shoeing.

That three-year-old had double navicular and it was serious. They had him in corrective shoes. They were not some old standard pair of steel shoes nor were they heart bars. They were some sort of aluminum shoe specifically for navicular.

I think they may have been some corrective model of Kerckhaert shoes, as that was the brand of aluminum wedge shoe he put on my foundered horse for a while.

The navicular three-year-old had the same appointment date and time as my foundered horse, so I saw him every five weeks for several months, until my horse was good to go and I didn't go to the clinic anymore. The owner was about my age so we would chat it up while one of our horses was being worked on. I remember she drove nearly three hours from another state.

Meaning, be sure to ask the vet what type of shoes they plan to use, and what do they plan to do for the hoof angle?

This will be therapeutic trimming by the barefoot farrier, then therapeutic shoeing by the vet and the other farrier. That means your horse should be seeing a hoof caregiver every five weeks maximum. I would question any of them if they want to wait longer:)

Please keep us posted, I hope all goes well for you :)
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I CAN'T ride 'em n slide 'em. I HAVE to lead 'em n feed 'em Thnx cowchick77.

Last edited by walkinthewalk; 08-26-2019 at 03:25 PM.
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post #14 of 17 Old 08-27-2019, 02:31 AM
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^Oh, poor baby 3yo with serious 'navicular' already! Not much hope for him if only the conventional 'treatment' route taken... Even in ideal situation/circumstance - such as an arid zone feral horse travelling many, many miles daily - horses don't BEGIN to develop caudal hoof strength until around 4yo, so EVERY 2-4yo will have weak caudal feet, unable to support the joints adequately, depending on what humans require of them.
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Some info I've found helpful; [COLOR=Lime][B]www.horseforum.com/horse-health/hoof-lameness-info-horse-owners-89836/
For taking critique pics; [COLOR=Lime][B]https://www.horseforum.com/members/41...res-128437.jpg
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post #15 of 17 Old 08-27-2019, 06:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loosie View Post
^Oh, poor baby 3yo with serious 'navicular' already! Not much hope for him if only the conventional 'treatment' route taken... Even in ideal situation/circumstance - such as an arid zone feral horse travelling many, many miles daily - horses don't BEGIN to develop caudal hoof strength until around 4yo, so EVERY 2-4yo will have weak caudal feet, unable to support the joints adequately, depending on what humans require of them.
You are spot on.

As I commented, the lady was close to my age. She had bred this horse. I am pretty sure the navicular was a congenital issue. Even though the lady called him a Quarter Horse, he was a gorgeous Paint.

I've known this lameness vet for 12 years, so I asked him what the outcome was for a 3 year old with navicular in both hooves. He dropped his head, lowered his voice and said "all I can do is try and keep him comfortable".

I asked if it wouldn't have been better to PTS the colt right at the beginning. That's when I learned the lady had bred this colt, it was her last one, and she was willing to spend her last dime to try and help him, and hope for a miracle.

That was in 2015, and thankfully I have not had to carry Joker to the clinic since then. I have no idea if the colt is still walking this earth or has gone on to be with his ancestors, no longer having to struggle.

If I'm remembering correctly, that colt was at least as tall as Joker, who is 15.3H, maybe a tch taller. Built like Arnild Schwarzenegger in his younger days but the colt had tiny hooves --- tiny hooves.

The whole situation broke my heart --- I had better hope for recovery from Joker's founder, which he did recover enough to give him a good quality of life as long as I micro manage that life-----

A Good Horseman Doesn't Have To Tell Anyone; The Horse Already Knows.

I CAN'T ride 'em n slide 'em. I HAVE to lead 'em n feed 'em Thnx cowchick77.
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post #16 of 17 Old 08-27-2019, 07:44 AM
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^What's saddest is that this was only 4 years ago, not decades ago when people genuinely didn't know better, but these days, when there is plenty of research & plenty of evidence of good outcomes with 'alternative' treatment, yet so many horses still get the 'palliative only' option pushed on them by vets who should have educated themselves better.

**Not at all meaning that was necessarily the case for this boy & your vet though Walkin - a 'beef bull' QH with tiny little hoofie woofies, well, maybe palliative was indeed the only option going in his case(tho I'd sure give everything else a long hard try first). Just that it is so often still the only option the vets & farriers have any clue about, and there's no excuse for that, in this day & age, IMO.
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Some info I've found helpful; [COLOR=Lime][B]www.horseforum.com/horse-health/hoof-lameness-info-horse-owners-89836/
For taking critique pics; [COLOR=Lime][B]https://www.horseforum.com/members/41...res-128437.jpg
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post #17 of 17 Old 08-27-2019, 12:22 PM
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@loosie . Vets aren't allowed to discuss other clients so I was trying hard to read between the lines of what little bit the vet was telling me.

He is a vet who wears his feelings on his sleeve for all the horses he cares for. I got the sense from his tone of voice and his manner of speaking that he felt the colt (who was gelded) should have been PTS'd but the owner was fighting against it tooth and nail, waiting for a miracle. I got that same feeling from the vet's farrier.

When Joker first foundered in 2012, I was polar opposite of this lady, in this regard. I told the vet I was about quality of life not quantity. The vet looked me dead in the eye and said "---there's a lot of fight left in those eyes. Give him six months and we will discuss this--".

Joker is still happily chugging along, even though he re-fractured his back in early spring. I think Joker thinks I can just pull the a Magic Rabbit out of my hat and always find someone to put him back together again:).

Just a reminder, Joker is my avatar --- that trusting face says it all, lol

If I listed everything that's happened to Joker, starting with having 190 stitches in his chest before I bought him, people would marvel (I know his previous owner and I still do) that he has made it to 24 and is happy as a lark. My checkbook is not as happy as a lark but Joker sure is, loll
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A Good Horseman Doesn't Have To Tell Anyone; The Horse Already Knows.

I CAN'T ride 'em n slide 'em. I HAVE to lead 'em n feed 'em Thnx cowchick77.
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