Subclinical laminitis now what? - Page 4 - The Horse Forum
 153Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #31 of 92 Old 05-24-2019, 11:25 AM
Trained
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Kirkland, Arizona
Posts: 5,326
• Horses: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by rambo99 View Post
@Hondo thank you for the detailed post. Vets calling it laminitis not founder. Rotation is 1 degree left front 2 degrees right front.

I'm going on what I've been told I've done some studying on hooves but not a ton.

Many use laminitis and founder interchangeably, both lay and vets. Some articles are posted that state outright the term are interchangeable.


Others publications state that founder does not occur until displacement of the coffin bones occur.


I just looked at laminitis in the Merck Manual and they have (founder) placed under the title but go on to refer to displacement as advanced laminitis.


So it would appear the terminology is up for grabs. I regard the Merck Manual as the final word.


About the cause of the rotation being lyme or feed related.



Fact is, the management in the future is not much different. Once the laminae has torn loose and the damage to the vascular system has occurred, they will never fully recover leaving the horse susceptible to grass induced laminitis whether the laminitis was first caused by lyme or not.



Pete Ramey has a trimming protocol for reversing distal decent and rotation which has been very successful even with cases where the coffin bone actually penetrated the sole. His method was tested independently by a university research team with great success. I am following his protocol myself.


His protocol does require boots 24/7 for sole protection. In severe cases casting was used.


I am using Scootboots which has been a life saver for Hondo, perhaps literally.


As the lamellar wedge formed from the rotation is growing down it has caused an elongation of his hoof that cannot be entirely corrected until the rotation is corrected. That require a longer boot size as the straps on the back became tight enough to cause sores. With the larger boot, the sores have healed while wearing the boots.


When the vascular system is damaged, the nutrients required for sole growth is diminished resulting in thin soles. If Hondo does not fully correct, he may need boots 24/7 for the rest of his life but for certain while being ridden.


There are two before and after x-ray photos on Ramey's site with the first being severe sinkage and rotation and the second being close to a full recovery and strong sole depth.


The two x-rays were taken 2 1/2 years apart and care was ongoing. There's no quick over night fixes to laminitis or founder.


As an aside, I'll mention that the breakover on both the toe and quarters of the Scootboots have been relieved with a belt sander and extra pads attached to the outside bottom have been attached that moves both breakovers further back and inward. Similar tho the Steward Clog concept. With out those, Hondo is much less comfortable.


And BTW, when I'm trying different things I measure Hondo's comfort by two methods. He will normally come along at my side with a loose lead. Under discomfort he will resist.


I also sit and time the foot shifts of his fores, either by counting or a stop watch. At 15 second shifts he will be very resistant to lead. At 30 seconds he gets a lot easier. By 60 seconds he leads normal and his feet can be held up much longer.


How long all the weight can be put on one fore while the other is being held is a great test for soreness and also for identifying which is the most sore.
gottatrot likes this.

I think it important to always be mindful that the horse actually owes us nothing at all and it is we who owe the horse. "It's a goal"
Hondo is offline  
post #32 of 92 Old 05-24-2019, 03:34 PM Thread Starter
Yearling
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,435
• Horses: 0
@Hondo thanks about the management no matter the cause didn't know that. Pasture was tested last year spring when growth was lush. Then tested again in fall NSC didn't change much average was 15 percent nsc.

I will look into doing hoof boots with pads for protection. Didn't know they need protection 24/7.

Keeping him off pasture right now is almost impossible. Entire fence line that keeps barnyard fenced off from pasture is taken down. In process of putting up new fence line.

The timing the front foot shifting is a good idea will definitely do that. He did stand good to be trimmed so guessing he wasn't to sore.

He leads up no matter what, so not sure I can use that for an indicator of pain level.

Will do some hoof boot searching see what will work best. Needs to be easy to put on take off .

No video he's obviously sore today, so not going to video. .plus its raining out.

Yeah I know founder and laminitis are interchangeable. Although founder is Usaully used I thought ,if there was rotation of coffin bones.
gottatrot likes this.

Last edited by rambo99; 05-24-2019 at 03:40 PM.
rambo99 is offline  
post #33 of 92 Old 05-24-2019, 06:31 PM
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 19,607
• Horses: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by rambo99 View Post
Horse is standing better now this evening, so do I leave him barefoot ?? An use boots ? Or re shoe In two weeks. ?
Already told you my opinion there.

Quote:
I read the rings can be from diet change not necessarily from laminitis or founder .
Significant rings & ridges are due to stress on the laminae/walls causing deviation. That can be due to dietary or other causes. Laminitis is not from one single cause

Quote:
Is there hope of reversing the rotation an damage in his feet?
Yes. But possibly not when your main priority is continuing to ride the horse.
gottatrot and Kalraii like this.

Some info I've found helpful; [COLOR=Lime][B]www.horseforum.com/horse-health/hoof-lameness-info-horse-owners-89836/
For taking critique pics; [COLOR=Lime][B]https://www.horseforum.com/members/41...res-128437.jpg
loosie is offline  
post #34 of 92 Old 05-24-2019, 06:31 PM
Green Broke
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,949
• Horses: 2
While 15% isn't SUPER high it also isn't SUPER low? Is there any way you could get a magnesium supplement in him? Magnesium can help a lot with the sugars in the grass.
loosie, gottatrot and Kalraii like this.
evilamc is offline  
post #35 of 92 Old 05-24-2019, 06:41 PM
Green Broke
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: middle of nowhere
Posts: 3,138
• Horses: 3
Did you x-ray the rear feet? The way he's standing, he looks like he may be trying to keep weight off the rear hooves, and rear leg lameness is much harder to see than foreleg lameness for a lot of people, vets and farriers included, because there's no 'head bob' in most cases. Laminitis does not always show only in the forefeet. It's likely he's also sore behind, especially when it's due to a metabolic or overall inflammatory response, which is what's going on with the Lyme.
loosie, gottatrot and Kalraii like this.
SilverMaple is offline  
post #36 of 92 Old 05-24-2019, 06:53 PM
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 19,607
• Horses: 0
^He does look uncomfortable behind to me too.

So Rambo, care to share pics & rads??
gottatrot and Kalraii like this.

Some info I've found helpful; [COLOR=Lime][B]www.horseforum.com/horse-health/hoof-lameness-info-horse-owners-89836/
For taking critique pics; [COLOR=Lime][B]https://www.horseforum.com/members/41...res-128437.jpg
loosie is offline  
post #37 of 92 Old 05-24-2019, 07:01 PM Thread Starter
Yearling
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,435
• Horses: 0
Haven't ridden him since last week when I did video. He's barefoot so can't be ridden, he'll stone bruise all to heck. Yes riding is priority but not when he's sore or sick.

No xrays on hinds he moved as I took picture.

Getting him to eat a supplement is like trying to get blood from a rock. I've long given up on getting him to eat anything other then hay or grass.

Have to fight him twice a day to get the doxy down him...thats getting old. Have to put a chain over his gums , takes two to give him meds. He did ok for a while but now he's sick of nasty tasting meds and syringes.

More ends up on the ground and me most times ,him flinging his head around. He's had a bloody mouth a few times now.
rambo99 is offline  
post #38 of 92 Old 05-24-2019, 07:18 PM Thread Starter
Yearling
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,435
• Horses: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by loosie View Post
^He does look uncomfortable behind to me too.

So Rambo, care to share pics & rads??
Yes I will try having issues with email, and getting pictures loaded. Vet office has sent the xrays 3 different times and I'm not receiving them.

I'm getting a bit ticked with our internet server. Its hit an miss with pictures loading got the two I posted loaded...no luck since.
gottatrot likes this.
rambo99 is offline  
post #39 of 92 Old 05-25-2019, 03:39 PM
Yearling
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: California
Posts: 815
• Horses: 2
You can use ACE to calm him before giving him the meds. You can get it from your vet. You just squirt a little in their gums then wait 20 minutes till they are a bit loopy, and it's easier to give shots, pills, etc. Better than a bloody mouth I think.
Filou is offline  
post #40 of 92 Old 05-25-2019, 07:58 PM
Green Broke
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,949
• Horses: 2
Out of curiosity, have you been giving probiotics (like probios or something) wiht the doxy meds? That stuff is hard on their stomachs...Wasn't sure if vet told you to or not, can't remember if you ever said you were. Could be making his stomach upset then making him hate it even more? Anytime I give bute or an antibiotic I always give probiotics as well.
loosie and Kalraii like this.
evilamc is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the The Horse Forum forums, you must first register.

Already have a Horse Forum account?
Members are allowed only one account per person at the Horse Forum, so if you've made an account here in the past you'll need to continue using that account. Please do not create a new account or you may lose access to the Horse Forum. If you need help recovering your existing account, please Contact Us. We'll be glad to help!

New to the Horse Forum?
Please choose a username you will be satisfied with using for the duration of your membership at the Horse Forum. We do not change members' usernames upon request because that would make it difficult for everyone to keep track of who is who on the forum. For that reason, please do not incorporate your horse's name into your username so that you are not stuck with a username related to a horse you may no longer have some day, or use any other username you may no longer identify with or care for in the future.



User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Now do I learn now to canter when all the school horses keep frightening me? Horsef New to Horses 21 02-23-2016 11:20 PM
Thrush? Laminitis? Opinions needed please Rescue mom Horse Health 6 07-27-2008 12:16 AM
Laminitis and Founder appylover31803 Horse Health 18 06-23-2008 04:21 PM
Do u have any problems with laminitis? the real horse whisperer Horse Health 2 03-06-2007 12:02 AM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome