What is it w/Drafts & purposeful pancake feet? - Page 2 - The Horse Forum
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post #11 of 28 Old 01-23-2017, 06:49 AM
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Originally Posted by secuono View Post
Said that the flairs help the sole be larger and touch more of the ground, which is needed for pulling. That the sole is what they stand on and what they need to use to move loads.
Flaring - that is, allowing the walls to distort away from the internal foot actually causes soles to 'drop' and become thinner. For soles to remain thick and therefore able to provide adequate support & protection under the pedal bone, walls must also be tight & strong. And flaring may *look* like it makes the sole bigger, but the true sole stays only under the pedal bone. What becomes larger, 'stretching' with the walls is AKA 'lamellar wedge' material.

As for soles needing to be flatter & larger(than what the internal foot/anatomy dictates) for heavy loads, I don't get the reasoning of that idea at all. On soft ground, they need to be able to dig their toes in, and on hard surfaces, it only delays breakover, effectively making it harder on the horses - more musclework for each & every step! Aside from the bad mechanics acting against hooves & joints.

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any big heavy horse is more prone to flatter feet. I had a foundation quarter mare, she was short stocky bull dog type and had terribly flat feet. To make her not flat footed would have been to tamper with the natural foot angle , letting her heel grow to a higher than normal length.
I do agree a lot of farriers are fast with drafts feet, simply because the horses are so heavy, it is difficult to hold up that hoof. The drafts I have and kept here, would only stand 3 legged for a short time.
Yes, heavy horses, or weak footed horses - TB racehorses for eg, who very often have rather laminitic feet - are indeed 'prone' to flat feet *if not managed carefully*. Of course, every horse is individual, some naturally have less concavity than others, but I'm assuming that's not what we're discussing here, but we're talking about flared, stretched, 'pancake flat' feet. Therefore I will disagree that improving flat feet would be detrimental to 'angles', such as require high heels. As with any horse, growing out flares/flat feet requires walls to be quite short all round, in relation to the sole plane to reduce the pressure on them, allow them to grow straight & strong. And allowing the soles to a certain degree & frog to *comfortably* bear the load. Once that happens, the soles can begin to thicken too.

I think it's not so much the weight of the animal/leg - if they're well trained, that may be negligible. And you usually don't have to bend far either, which helps! Give me a well mannered clydie any day over an obstreperous pony. But more about the behaviour of a lot of drafts - they may have had less good training, or learned to use their strength against anything annoying like farriery. And too many farriers IME are of the belief brute strength & bull attitude wins the day with horses... not that I could pull that off if I wanted to... And the fact that on a draft there's usually so much more HARD hoof to trim, than normal.

A well mannered but arthritic draft... definitely need the hoof stand! So many horses I see are also difficult to trim because they're sore, or *can't* do as the farrier may want. They may not want to lift one leg, can't hold them up for long, can't lift them high, or out to the side... whatever. That's still hard on you, regardless the size of the horse... unless it's a pony small & safe enough to sit down beside it to do!

I will take the time on a horse that is sore, to do the job as well as possible & ensure he has a reasonable experience too... even though this might include me trimming in... yoga poses for some sore horses! If their 'behaviour' is just down to lack of training/manners, then I'm happy to spend time training too, if you pay me for it, but don't expect me to put myself further in harm's way to just get the job done. Farriery doesn't pay that well & I only seem to have one body.
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post #12 of 28 Old 01-23-2017, 07:16 AM
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Thanks for that link boots. Interesting. I didn't know the reasoning behind 'scotch bottoms'. I can absolutely see that a much wider web, flatter surface could indeed be better in deep mud... or as a snow shoe! I don't know enough by half, to give an opinion on how well it works & side effects, but can see the point. But while that's what they're designed for, used in other situations & harder ground would cause a lot of extra... torque!

And while shoes may need to be bigger for a special purpose, that doesn't mean to say the feet should be allowed to distort to match. Unfortunately, a quick google image search only turned up one reasonable looking foot with such a shoe(attached). The rest of the pics are what, by that article, would be the 'scotch bottom SHOW shoe', which is much more exaggerated and they encourage the feet to deform to match the shoes. Why am I not surprised to hear the exaggeration is for the show scene...
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post #13 of 28 Old 01-23-2017, 11:36 AM
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A lot of that is done for higher and fancier leg action
For show purposes only. Go to a draft horse pull. You won't see a single horse with feet like that.
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post #14 of 28 Old 01-23-2017, 06:42 PM
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Farriers have to decide as to whether they are 'comfortable; , shoing horses for some exaggerated action, or whether they make the call to shoe horses just so they are balanced, and where those shoes have minimal negative impact
I know of a farrier that refused to shoe halter hroses, as they were shod in a manner to 'stand them up'
The way Saddlebreds and TW are shod, could also fall under this moral judgement
Just because something is done, does not mean it should be
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post #15 of 28 Old 01-24-2017, 10:01 AM
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I just got an idea! Wouldn't it be great if showing a horse in all disciplines included a hoof inspection/appraisal, top and bottom?

That would it seems bring everything out in the open and get people educated and talking about it.

I don't know if horses are judged on overall conformation but if they are hoof health should be part of it.
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post #16 of 28 Old 01-24-2017, 11:29 AM
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@Hondo that would mean there would have to be overall standards for hoof conformation to be judged against. That also means that it is open to interpretation.

In some classes where the horse is judges overall the hoof and leg are looked at. But it is hard to diagnose a horse wearing wedges as unsounds if you do not see x-rays etc.

I like the thought but think it is impractical
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post #17 of 28 Old 01-24-2017, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carshon View Post
there would have to be overall standards for hoof conformation
That is exactly what I would be hoping for. There are overall standards for everything else, why not hooves?

I don't know a lot about Europe other than farriers have to be certified by the government. So I wouldn't think standards there would be too hard to establish. So why not in the USA also?

It would be good for horses and a big step in educating the public horse owners.
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post #18 of 28 Old 01-24-2017, 05:48 PM
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Thinking about this a little farther.......

It is my understanding that it is common practice for farriers to do things like trimming the hoof on a cow hocked horse crooked to make the horse land non cow hocked. And that is very hard on the horse's joints and brings on arthritis early.

So if they lost more points for imbalanced trim than for being cow hocked it'd stop that harmful practice.
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post #19 of 28 Old 01-25-2017, 12:50 AM
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I like your thinking on that Hondo & agree in theory, but practically, I'd have to agree with Carshon. If vets who assess endurance horses(for eg) have no clue what they're seeing a lot of the time, have many different ideas & interpretations... what hope is there for show judges to learn/know enough to create & then judge particular 'standards'...
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post #20 of 28 Old 01-25-2017, 08:23 AM
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You are making my point @loosie . Bad calls by officials are not ignored by competitors. Sloppy foot care vs sloppy calls by officials would begin to be sorted out. Might take a while but I do continue to think it would eventually have a positive influence on hoof care.

If the official are swamped with protests that are legitimate it would not take long to start getting it right.

I spent many years in a non-equine race format and protests can be very effective in getting the race format straightened out.

If nothing else it would elevate public awareness of the feet. If you are showing in a halter class or what ever, you would be showing the WHOLE horse, including the bottom of his feet.

I think it should be the judges that look at the feet. So they would have to know more than just the external conformation of the horse.

I just don't get why the conformation of the bottom of the hoof would be so hard when the outer body if the horse is judged for conformation. What's the difference?
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