Lipizzaners - Page 3 - The Horse Forum
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post #21 of 25 Old 07-20-2018, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by its lbs not miles View Post
You are clearly correct about not knowing the history of the breeding. They were not "always meant for light carriage driving". The classical Baroque breeds (which they are part of) where created for riding. People love to say the same "meant for carriages" of other Baroque breeds like the Friesian, but if you study their history you'll find that they were riding horses first. Pulling carriages came later. Any horse breed can be used for driving. Because someone uses it for that (or that is becomes popular for that) does not mean that it was created for that. Just as any horse can be ridden, but that doesn't mean that it was what the breed was created for. The history of the breed tells you that, These breeds were created for the knights of their age to ride into combat and more often than not you found nobility and royalty mounted on them because of their "style" and "appearance".
That might be true for other baroque breeds. I am fairly sure the Hapsburgs were breeding for driving a lot. Letís put it this way: I was born and grew up in the region. Iíve been seeing them in real life, in history books (which cover the Habsburgs extensively), in old family photos my whole life. I am going to hazard a guess that I do know a little bit more about how the breed was and is used than an average rider.

Here is a quote from one of the national associations:

ďThe Kladrub stud produced heavy carriage horses. Riding horses and light carriage horses came from the Lipizza stud although breeding stock was exchanged between the studs. The Kladrub stud produced Maestoso and Favory, two of the foundation sires of todayís Lipizzan.Ē

Please note that Kladrub were carriage horses almost exclusively. Maestoso and Favory lines are very, very common today.

Again, I am not saying they arenít riding horses. I am saying they are used for driving much more often and even in historical photos, in the era you are talking about, driving them was more common.
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post #22 of 25 Old 07-20-2018, 05:36 PM
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Here is an illustration and a photo of the Austrian cavalry. Not many Lipizzaners.
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post #23 of 25 Old 07-20-2018, 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Horsef View Post
That might be true for other baroque breeds. I am fairly sure the Hapsburgs were breeding for driving a lot. Letís put it this way: I was born and grew up in the region. Iíve been seeing them in real life, in history books (which cover the Habsburgs extensively), in old family photos my whole life. I am going to hazard a guess that I do know a little bit more about how the breed was and is used than an average rider.

Here is a quote from one of the national associations:

ďThe Kladrub stud produced heavy carriage horses. Riding horses and light carriage horses came from the Lipizza stud although breeding stock was exchanged between the studs. The Kladrub stud produced Maestoso and Favory, two of the foundation sires of todayís Lipizzan.Ē

Please note that Kladrub were carriage horses almost exclusively. Maestoso and Favory lines are very, very common today.

Again, I am not saying they arenít riding horses. I am saying they are used for driving much more often and even in historical photos, in the era you are talking about, driving them was more common.
And grew up a few hour north of Vienna and have seen the "real thing" too back in the 60's and early 70's, up close and personal, but that doesn't mean squat for the history of the breed.

So yes, let's but this to rest with an extremely short history lesson on the breed to just cover the actual "Lipizzaner or Lipizzan" (depending on where you're from) horse.

The "Kladrub stud" was for heavy horses intended for pulling carriages. That was Max the 2nd's pet project. At the same time his brother Charley had his own pet project and started a school at Lipizza which created the breed of riding horses for war known as....(you guessed it)Ö.Lipizzaners. So now we know where they started, why they started, who started them, AND how they got their name.

Now I do hope you're not going to embarrass yourself by trying to dispute history with some other spin on the record. I don't care if "you" bred them to pull carriage. Yes, the Hapsburgs brought Spanish horses to create a breed for use in war that is known today as the Lipizzaner. Using a different breeding program someplace else to create carriage horses has nothing to do with that. When last we checked there wasn't a huge need for many carriages or a huge number of carriage horses in combat during the 1500's. The Lipizzaner derived it's name from the breeding program which was set up in Lipizza. Now of course you can (and people have and do) use a riding horse to pull carriages. It's done all the time. That does not mean that the breed of horse was created as a carriage horse (if so 90% of all the breeds in the world were intended to be carriage horses and hopefully we all know that's not the case).

They're always going to be bigger and stronger so you better always be smarter. (One of my grandfather's many pearls of wisdom)
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post #24 of 25 Old 07-20-2018, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Horsef View Post
Here is an illustration and a photo of the Austrian cavalry. Not many Lipizzaners.
'
That's because most of the men in the Cav were NOT nobility or royalty. The Hapsburg kept the Lipizzaners for their nobility and royalty. It was not a common soldier horse.

I though you had books on this? They don't seem to tell you much.

I wasn't until the empire was collapsing (or collapsed) that the common person could even view them at the Spanish Riding School. If you couldn't go view them performing (without be royalty, nobility, or a dignitary) then what do you think your odds were of riding them? Again, that doesn't change what they were created for. Only shows "who" was allowed to make use of them.

They're always going to be bigger and stronger so you better always be smarter. (One of my grandfather's many pearls of wisdom)
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post #25 of 25 Old 07-20-2018, 09:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by its lbs not miles View Post
You are clearly correct about not knowing the history of the breeding. They were not "always meant for light carriage driving". The classical Baroque breeds (which they are part of) where created for riding. People love to say the same "meant for carriages" of other Baroque breeds like the Friesian, but if you study their history you'll find that they were riding horses first. Pulling carriages came later. Any horse breed can be used for driving. Because someone uses it for that (or that is becomes popular for that) does not mean that it was created for that. Just as any horse can be ridden, but that doesn't mean that it was what the breed was created for. The history of the breed tells you that, These breeds were created for the knights of their age to ride into combat and more often than not you found nobility and royalty mounted on them because of their "style" and "appearance".
YOU ARE MY NEW FRIEND!!

I always wonder about the repetitiveness of the myths that many of the baroque breeds have been labeled to when it only takes a 5 minute Google search of their history to find out otherwise.

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