What color is Tobie technically - Page 4 - The Horse Forum
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post #31 of 59 Old 11-11-2016, 01:47 PM
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I have never before heard of chestnut being called brown. Brown has always been it's own separate modifier that effects black-based horses similarly to bay/agouti. Brown is often called "seal brown," but it's just a descriptor, much like liver chestnut versus chestnut.

brown horses
The Enigmatic Brown Horse | Color Genetics
Seal Bay or Brown Horse Coat Color Modifier | The Equinest

^^ Every single one of those links describes brown as a variation of agouti. The ONLY one that doesn't is Wikipedia which isn't a widely accepted reference due to the fact that anyone can change it (try writing a high school or college paper and using Wikipedia as a reference...you'll automatically get an F).
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post #32 of 59 Old 11-11-2016, 02:02 PM
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well, here you go

Chestnut mimics[edit]

Bay horses have a red body but black "points"
Bay horses also have reddish coats, but they have a black mane, tail, legs and other "points". The presence of true black points, even if obscured by white markings, means that a horse is not chestnut.
Seal brown or dark bay horses are not chestnut but may be confused with a liver chestnut. Those unfamiliar with horse coat color terminology often call most horses "brown". including chestnuts. Brown, which may be difficult to distinguish visually from dark bay, is always accompanied by black points. Liver chestnuts, in particular, are mistakenly called brown or "seal brown".

Has this horse been genetically tested?
No.
Thus, deciding he is genetically brown, even using your criteria, does not exclude incorrect visual observations!
The point is, looking at him, you cannot decide he is 'brown' as per genetic criteria you gave, but can be incorrectly missed that he is actually a liver chestnut, often referred to as brown, just looking at the horse
I am not arguing actual genetics-give me genetic proof that he is abrown, as defined by color genetics, as otherwise, just looking at him, knowing his supposed parentage, I would call him aliver chestnut, until proven otherwise



Chestnut mimics[edit]



Bay horses have a red body but black "points"
Bay horses also have reddish coats, but they have a black mane, tail, legs and other "points". The presence of true black points, even if obscured by white markings, means that a horse is not chestnut.
Seal brown or dark bay horses are not chestnut but may be confused with a liver chestnut. Those unfamiliar with horse coat color terminology often call most horses "brown". including chestnuts. Brown, which may be difficult to distinguish visually from dark bay, is always accompanied by black points. Liver chestnuts, in particular, are mistakenly called brown or "seal brown".
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post #33 of 59 Old 11-11-2016, 02:29 PM
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The horse in question, has no black points. He has two chestnut parents
Thus, until genetics prove otherwise, To me he is a liver chestnut, which is often confused with a true brown, as per genetics
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post #34 of 59 Old 11-11-2016, 03:13 PM
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All I am trying to say, as is that Wikipedia link, as it gives the genetics of a true brown horse, which are , as drafty states, is that the liver chestnut can be confused with brown, going by visual appearance only, and are thus often called brown incorrectly
Thus, to me, before I would question parentage, I would consider that horse to be liver chestnut, unless proven otherwise, by genetics, and not just visual deduction, stated to be brown, as per genetics, thus not possible with parentage given
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post #35 of 59 Old 11-11-2016, 03:17 PM
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by your definition my "brown" arabian is a chestnut.
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post #36 of 59 Old 11-11-2016, 03:24 PM
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OP can you post better pics of tobi? if his mane and tail have true black he may be brown. i would pull hair and have him genetically tested.
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post #37 of 59 Old 11-11-2016, 03:33 PM
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The last I heard, no lab is testing for brown currently----has that changed?


The phenotype of horses can be very confusing......we have a liver chestnut mare that everybody swears is bay. Her DNA test came back as ee and both her parents are chestnuts! Most people claim our mini gelding is black......he has very dark brown shading along his flanks but not the mealy shading on the muzzle that most seal browns do although his inner ear hair is light brown--I want to get him tested for brown just for fun.
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post #38 of 59 Old 11-11-2016, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Prairie View Post
Most people claim our mini gelding is black......he has very dark brown shading along his flanks but not the mealy shading on the muzzle that most seal browns do although his inner ear hair is light brown--I want to get him tested for brown just for fun.
Test for agouti. If there is agouti present, then he is bay/brown. No agouti, he is black.

All the brown test was doing was trying to identify the agouti mutation (there are 3 mutations of agouti) but the test was pulled because it was faulty (sometimes testing non agouti horses as being homozygous agouti in the brown test and other such nonsense)

While you cannot test for the brown agouti mutation, you can test for agouti in general which is accurate and will tell you whether or not the mini is black or bay/brown
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post #39 of 59 Old 11-11-2016, 04:26 PM Thread Starter
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I will get better pictures this weekend. He isn't wanting to stand for pictures with all the smoke. He will evnetually be tested, not just for color, but genetic problems as well. Eventually mind you.

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post #40 of 59 Old 11-11-2016, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Smilie View Post
The horse in question, has no black points. He has two chestnut parents
Thus, until genetics prove otherwise, To me he is a liver chestnut, which is often confused with a true brown, as per genetics
Because they are covered by white. Doesn't mean they aren't there, just means we can't see them (they got covered by white paint). Additionally, if the horse's base coat is dark enough, the black points that would be very prominent on a bay horse's face can be camouflaged. Hopefully the OP can get us pics in better lighting.
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