Colicking like clockwork every morning - Page 5 - The Horse Forum
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post #41 of 59 Old 06-28-2017, 10:43 PM
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Is the medication to be given for three days or three weeks? I'm assuming it is something like carafate to coat the stomach, but three days will not do anything toward treating ulcers. They are open wounds, similar to any other wound on the body but are also exposed to acid which makes them take awhile to heal (even with medication). Three days would be like a horse having a big gash on their leg and the vet saying it should be healed up in three days and you can go back to riding.
Maybe this is a trial to see if symptoms improve before starting on other medication? Many horses with ulcers would show signs of improvement after three days, but some won't. Also if the ulcers are farther along in the digestive tract than the stomach, a coating medication won't make a difference.

You've had some serious financial troubles lately and I feel for you.

There was a good article in Equus this month about how research supports that the traditional way of keeping horses in stalls with limited turnout is bad for them, even though many people see no problem with it because that's the way it's been done forever in some areas. Hopefully, as time goes on horse facilities will be modernized to reflect the science for better horsekeeping. We've traditionally believed you can keep horses on postage stamp sized properties, when doing so is far from ideal.
Even when horses are fed hay rather than grazing, they still need the same amount of space.
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post #42 of 59 Old 06-28-2017, 11:47 PM
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Agree with Dreamcatcher that stalling is not *necessarily* the devil. Likewise, just because they're kept out in a paddock doesn't necessarily make it good. I disagree tho that horses have *evolved* to suit different management. No, in that manner, they're the same as they were 1000's of years ago. Aside from minor changes like particularly 'thin skinned' TBs who need rugging for eg. I am a 'never say never' sort of a person, who thinks that there are almost always exceptions to the 'rules' and that compromises don't necessarily mean problems.

BUT that there are SO many health *& wellbeing*(don't think that should be undervalued either) issues with keeping horses cooped up, esp 24/7, that you need to understand fully in order to consider fully. Just because a horse can survive living in a box, or for that matter a small, solitary paddock, doesn't mean that it's good for it. And if horses must be kept in such artificial & restrictive environs, then you need to ensure you compensate in a variety of ways, for what they'll be lacking in. Obviously exercise is one big one, but that's not the only important consideration.

Anyway, the other consideration is whether it's going to be temporary or long standing, and it sounds like this is a temporary arrangement for your horses. So if it will be changing for the better soon, while I'd still want to ensure they got out & about for at least a couple of hours EVERY day, I wouldn't stress too much about it either.
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post #43 of 59 Old 06-30-2017, 02:46 AM Thread Starter
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@gottatrot The pills are 3 days. The vet did give them to me as a trial, to see how he does on the medication and if there is any improvement. If there is improvement I can return for another bottle of pills to continue for the next several weeks. As of today he has not colicked (or shown colic symptoms anyway) in 4 days, which is how long I've been extra vigilant about keeping hay in his stall, so I think that is already working. I kinda figured the medication would be a little light but I thought what the heck, I'm already here spending money to determine the cause of this craziness, might as well explore every avenue. I've been filling up my 4 small hole hay nets to bursting and then giving him 2 during the day and 2 at night, which he has nearly finished by the next meal period. He seems much happier and seems to be feeling better, yesterday when I turned him loose he actually bucked, and chased Dreams around for a while, something he doesn't do very often. At this point I'm as certain as I can be without an endoscopy that ulcers were at least partially the cause of his colic symptoms, and the long periods without food were are least partially to blame for the ulcers. I haven't really made any changes about turnout, I was already turning him out every day I was at the arena (again about 5 days a week on average) for about 3 hours, which is usually the length of time I'm there. He usually careens around like a rhino on crack for the first 20 minutes and then just moseys for the remainder, but Dreams keeps him moving fairly well. He's regained nearly all of the weight he lost and is overall I think much better.

@loosie I try to give them as much time out as I can ... and they both have a Jolly Ball (Dreams doesn't care for his but Thunder plays a lot) and Thunder has a salt Lixit that he messes around with. Dreams is happy as a clam and now that I'm starting to get Thunder's issues under control he's looking happier and healthier too. I'm attempting to find a pasture situation for the both of them that isn't a health hazard, and I'm confident I'll find one eventually, I just have to keep looking and asking.

I've had some great ideas from people on this thread and I'm thankful for everyone's prompt and thoughtful responses (even if I didn't like hearing them at the time!). Not really thrilled about ulcers but this alerted me to the feed issue which would have caused more problems down the road so I'm glad it was pointed out to me.

-- Kai
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post #44 of 59 Old 06-30-2017, 10:19 PM
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Glad you appear to of found a solution to your problem. I would keep encysted small stronglyes on the radar if colic symptoms return. Worms do not show up on decals and can often explain intermittent colicing..
Don't worry if he gets a little ribby at this point. Draft yearlings can be a homely bunch. He's got another 5 years to grow and fill out.
A yearling draft will eat about the same amount of hay as an average light horse. In the next year you will find he will need an additional 10-20# of hay. Have your own supply of extra hay or be prepared to pay a hay surcharge to the BO to assure he gets what he needs. I like my babies to get at least 50% alfalfa. Extra Ca,protein and calories while not relying on concentrates. You do need a better mineral supplement. Look for a bagged loose vitamin and mineral blend. I like Progressive Nutrition, ADM GroStrong and in a pinch a 12:12 from the mill works. At 3# of concentrates you aren't fulfilling his needs. He is devouring the "mineral" block to get the salt he needs. Read the tag in the block. 98+% salt? No measurable macro minerals (Ca and P). Don't worry about the water consumption. They drink a ton and pee even more.
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post #45 of 59 Old 06-30-2017, 10:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loosie View Post
Agree with Dreamcatcher that stalling is not *necessarily* the devil. Likewise, just because they're kept out in a paddock doesn't necessarily make it good. I disagree tho that horses have *evolved* to suit different management. No, in that manner, they're the same as they were 1000's of years ago. Aside from minor changes like particularly 'thin skinned' TBs who need rugging for eg. I am a 'never say never' sort of a person, who thinks that there are almost always exceptions to the 'rules' and that compromises don't necessarily mean problems.

BUT that there are SO many health *& wellbeing*(don't think that should be undervalued either) issues with keeping horses cooped up, esp 24/7, that you need to understand fully in order to consider fully. Just because a horse can survive living in a box, or for that matter a small, solitary paddock, doesn't mean that it's good for it. And if horses must be kept in such artificial & restrictive environs, then you need to ensure you compensate in a variety of ways, for what they'll be lacking in. Obviously exercise is one big one, but that's not the only important consideration.

Anyway, the other consideration is whether it's going to be temporary or long standing, and it sounds like this is a temporary arrangement for your horses. So if it will be changing for the better soon, while I'd still want to ensure they got out & about for at least a couple of hours EVERY day, I wouldn't stress too much about it either.
Agree that stalling part time, is not necessarily bad, esp on a mature horse that is worked regularity. I have to disagree that it is not a negative, when it comes to young growing horses
In the words of Dr Sid Gustavson,who is a vet that specializes in equine behavior and welfare, \horses have a great ability to adapt, but we must never exceed their ability to do so'

Horses are also creatures of habit, and that is really demonstrated by some PMU mares. Laws were passes that mares on line, had to have that harness for collecting urine, taken off , once a month at least, and those mares given some turn out.
Those mares would be waiting to go back into that barn.
Obviously, it is good for a horse to accept some stall time, esp if he is a show hrose,, or just in case he will ever need stall rest
Other then that, they are healthier (and enough research shows that, far as stable vises, ulcers, colic, hoof health, skeletal development ) and the fact just can't be disputed that horses, esp young growing hroses do best with full time turn out, needing only a wind break /shelter
If I had a show horse, that I rode reguarily, or that got a big turn out area during the day (not a little paddock), I would be fine with that horse stalled at night.
A young growing horse, esp with those problems-nope!
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post #46 of 59 Old 07-02-2017, 08:03 AM
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Smilie you are missing the point, OP really dose not have a choice in the matter. NOBODY WANTS their horses stalled all the time but sometimes it cant be avoided. my horses have spent their enter years in stalls. Notty has spent 26 of her 27 years in a stall when not turned out in the arena or being worked. Odie has spent his 10 years of life in a stall. the only horse i have that has EVER been lose on grass before is my arab.

if given the opportunity i would guarantee OP would get them on pasture. i understand the distance issue. EVERY TIME i have boarded my arab more then 30 min from me resulting in me being unable to see her almost daily it has turned out badly. i had a friend i knew for YEARS let me board my mare in her pasture. not only did they not even turn her out ON the pasture, but they stole my hay and started starving my horse. that was NOT the first time a situation like that has happened either.

moving her horses so far away she hardly sees them dose not seam like a feasible solution.

again, yes, horses SHOULD be out and able to graze 24/7 if possible. but its not always an option.
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post #47 of 59 Old 07-02-2017, 11:19 AM
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Well, no, it is not that simple, nor do I recommend that all horses should be out full time on grass, as some have to be managed, like my IR horse
I also realize the OP is a bit between a rock and a hard place, boarding her horses, but that unfortunately does not change the fact that confinement, esp for a young growing horse will contribute to many of the problems this horse is having, and will affect future soundness.
Thee facts have been presented at numerous seminars, including by a vet that specializes in equine lameness, and colic surgery.
Therefore, I think the suggestion was made, if possible, to do some fencing and provide a shelter, if move is not feasible.
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post #48 of 59 Old 07-03-2017, 09:09 PM
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Did the Vet do a kidney panel ? I had a mare start dropping weight, floated and wormed her. Then she started acting sort of colicky , out on pasture and alfalfa hay am and pm, and some sr feed not a lot but enough so she would leave the sr gelding in with alone so he could eat in peace.
And she ended up with a massive kidney infection . How we have no idea, it was not feed related because some of the other test showed that. Antibiotics for 2 months and she was over it. It has taken some time to get her weight up .
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post #49 of 59 Old 07-05-2017, 09:17 PM Thread Starter
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@ Left Hand Percherons I'm glad someone with draft experience has chimed in! Thunder is my first draft so I'm learning as I go. I dewormed with Safe-Guard, which according to the instructions on the box, treats large and small strongyles. He hasn't shown any more colic symptoms since I changed his feeding regimen, but I will certainly keep that in mind if they show up again. lol You're right on homely! When I bought him my fiancÚ was all raised eyebrows, he wasn't exactly the prettiest weanling I'd ever seen haha! Thanks for the info about loose minerals, I'll look for something at our feed store. It might have to be something like a multi-species loose mineral, I've seen ones for multi-species but not specifically for horses. I can see what they can order however. I'm glad his frequent urination isn't concerning, he pees more than any other horse I've ever had or seen but I wondered if it was a draft thing ....

@stevenson Yes the vet ran a kidney panel and everything was normal. She figured it would be but I wanted to be sure .... I'd rather get everything looked at in one visit if possible!

-- Kai
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post #50 of 59 Old 07-07-2017, 02:15 PM
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A single dose of Safeguard does not kill encysted small strongyles. There are 2 classes of drugs that kill them and that's moxidexin and fenbendazole (Safeguard) but it needs to be given for 5 consecutive days at double dose. Think 10 tubes at his current size. Encysted are not mature egg shedding worms so they will not show up on decals.
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