Could Kodak have navicular? - Page 2 - The Horse Forum
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post #11 of 87 Old 09-06-2019, 08:00 AM
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Yes, as explained, 'navicular syndrome' broadly just means chronic heel/caudal foot pain, so it does sound like she has that, but it's not necessarily anything to go to panic stations about. Unfortunately very many horses have (often undiagnosed) caudal foot pain/damage. In many instances, it's due to undeveloped caudal feet, &/or poor hoof balance/long toes. It can be due to untreated(or ineffectively treated) thrush, so yeah, be diligent about that. Trouble is, 'navicular' was such a mystery until relatively recently, so rather... vague, & classed as 'incurable'. A lot of professionals still seem to think of it as such. **Please note I'm not saying all 'navicular' horses are curable BTW.

Ditto to getting xrays if you can, but while it will tell you if there are any bony changes - so rule out or diagnose 'navicular disease' - it won't tell you about the state of the 'syndrome' of soft tissue damage/inflammation. Which if untreated, results in the bony changes. So... you could say rads will rule in or out the greater degree/chronicness of the problem. They will give you an idea how far progressed it may be. As well as accurately show toe length, heel height etc, for more specific trimming, which as explained by others could be an issue. Diagnostic ultrasound is another option to MRI which might be more accessible & cheaper for you too. This will show the state of the soft tissue.

Some info I've found helpful; [COLOR=Lime][B]www.horseforum.com/horse-health/hoof-lameness-info-horse-owners-89836/
For taking critique pics; [COLOR=Lime][B]https://www.horseforum.com/members/41...res-128437.jpg
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post #12 of 87 Old 09-06-2019, 09:00 AM
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Going to vote yes on X-rays and also throw in a vote for boots. There is actually a Face - book group for used boots and many posters are from Canada. I have a Navicular mare. Her gait was always choppy - her attitude for the most part was willing. but her gait became so bad that she was almost dangerous walking down steep inclines as she really wanted to walk on her toes. We had x-rays done and saw extremely minor shadowing on the Navicular bone. We went with shoes and wedges. What a mistake! We suffered through that for 2 years and it just caused huge thrush that made her more sore. We eventually decided to mostly retire her and she was on PreviCoxx - I then took classed to learn to trim my own horses and that practitioner was a god send . We took YaYa to my last class as my demo horse and the instructor ended up trimming her instead of me. Her heels were under run and narrow and she had deep sulcus thrush that had travelled far under the heel bulbs. It took almost a year to get that thrush all of the way cleared up. We tried everything (including antibiotics from the vet) eventually medicated padding shoved into the cleaned and debrided frogs and heel bulb cleared up the worst of it. I started trimming her myself every 4 weeks with a more experience trimmer coming out every other trim just to make sure I was on the right path. She became ridable enough with boots on that my daughters BF rides her - she still gets a little sore after a couple of hours of trail riding but she can do the steep inclines with no issue. My daughter rides her occasionally here and says her trot is smooth but her canter still a little choppy. The mare trots and races around the pasture with no issues. The result from probably years of deep thrush and potentially navicular is that she has negative palmar angles and we do wedge her boots with pads just slightly. She still wants to slide her foot when she walks and not walk heel toe like she should - her heels do not grow well and the tubules grow forward no matter what I do - she is trimmed with her toes as far back as we can safely do it and a gentle rasp just across the heels to bring them back. This mare will be 22 in just a few months and looks great and is an extra horse that can be lightly ridden by my daughter or her BF

You may be onto something with Kodak - baseline xrays are great and FWIW our mare has had no significant changes in hers in the last 7 years.
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post #13 of 87 Old 09-06-2019, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tinyliny View Post
Wouldn't a horse with something that caused hoof pain balk at trotting as well as at cantering? How does she trot out?
I am not sure why, exactly, but I have seen that things like deep central sulcus thrush and other causes of heel pain can be more bothersome at the canter. I've seen horses with club hooves that had some heel pain from various issues and they tend to trot better than canter. My guess it is because that leading foreleg carries more weight for longer, while at the trot the weight is more evenly distributed.
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post #14 of 87 Old 09-06-2019, 11:28 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks all! This is all very useful.

@carshon , I used to shove medicated pads in her central sulcus and have soaked and done all sorts of things. But to be clear, her frog does not appear or smell thrushy at all. The central sulci just don't seem to want to close. It's frustrating because I have looked at everything from nutrition to hoof treatments. On the surface (and underneath), her hooves look great. But according to my trimmer, sometimes there can still be infection deep in the central sulci. The Equine Podiatrist thinks the problem lies much deeper than that.

I do think hoof boots are the answer, and agree that xrays might be useful if not necessarily conclusive.
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post #15 of 87 Old 09-06-2019, 12:50 PM
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If you can swing it, I'd do the x-rays before you do the hoof boots, then show those radiographs to your farrier. Sometimes seeing what is actually going on inside the foot can mean a drastically different trim. You don't want to spend money on boots if you'll need a different type or size once your horse is trimmed if the farrier adjusts based on the radiographs. Call around-- I've had x-rays done for less than $200, especially if it was just the fronts and the vet could work me in when he was in the vicinity for another call rather than making a special trip. Sometimes what's apparent on the outside doesn't match the inside, and if that's the case, seeing the angle of the foot's structures can mean adjusting the breakover by taking the toe back much farther than one would without having them, and if that's the case and your mare is then more comfortable, you may not need the boots at all.
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post #16 of 87 Old 09-06-2019, 12:53 PM
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That is what our problem was. We treated thrush but never got in deep enough. The barefoot instructor got in there deeper and more aggressively than I ever would have for fear of hurting her. She cut away what looked like good heel bulb and from only to reveal deep pockets of thrush. We started by squirting Pennecillin into the heel bulb crevice with a syringe and moved to other treatments. Oxide and other things - and cutting away tissue that wanted to cover the hole eventually the hole was not as deep as it heeled from within. Thrush is still a battle with this mare - and we have had a minor drought this summer and the pastures are dry and her pen dry - we have changed feeds - changed bedding (she now has no bedding in her stall or run) and it just seems to be her.

I think looking into deep thrush is a good start.
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post #17 of 87 Old 09-06-2019, 01:16 PM
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It takes a lot of thrush to make a horse even tender.
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post #18 of 87 Old 09-06-2019, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acadianartist View Post
Thanks all! This is all very useful.

@carshon , I used to shove medicated pads in her central sulcus and have soaked and done all sorts of things. But to be clear, her frog does not appear or smell thrushy at all. The central sulci just don't seem to want to close. It's frustrating because I have looked at everything from nutrition to hoof treatments. On the surface (and underneath), her hooves look great. But according to my trimmer, sometimes there can still be infection deep in the central sulci. The Equine Podiatrist thinks the problem lies much deeper than that.

I do think hoof boots are the answer, and agree that xrays might be useful if not necessarily conclusive.
I agree with your trimmer that there could still be deep central sulci thrush, and yes it can be very painful. The best way I have found to treat this is by using a cattle mastitis treatment. There are 2 products. One is called Today, and the other is called Tomorrow. I would start with Today, and do maintenance with Tomorrow. It has a 3 inch long and thin applicator neck to reach into crevices and pockets. Works great!
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post #19 of 87 Old 09-06-2019, 05:21 PM Thread Starter
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Again, this is all really useful! Especially the part about deep thrush. Like you @carshon , we do not have a problem with mud or moisture, especially at this time of year. It's dry as a bone out there, and she is on very absorbent bedding. I pick out her feet daily and use thrush fighting products when needed. So I'm puzzled, but it lines up with what my trimmer thinks.
@SilverMaple - there is no calling around, we have livestock vets who have the best prices, but very little knowledge about horses, and more specialized vets that I'd have to travel to, which is not an option with Kodak.

The prices are not negotiable - this will cost me about 500$ using the cheap livestock vets. I'm not saying that's a good reason not to do it, but I do have to consider the cost among other factors. Forget getting ultrasounds or MRIs unless I'm willing to pay thousands of dollars and trailer 5 hours (one way) to a vet college with a horse that won't get on the trailer and is terrified of everything. So that's out. I think I will do the X-rays, I just need another pay cycle or two before I can afford them.
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post #20 of 87 Old 09-06-2019, 05:26 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carshon View Post
That is what our problem was. We treated thrush but never got in deep enough. The barefoot instructor got in there deeper and more aggressively than I ever would have for fear of hurting her. She cut away what looked like good heel bulb and from only to reveal deep pockets of thrush. We started by squirting Pennecillin into the heel bulb crevice with a syringe and moved to other treatments. Oxide and other things - and cutting away tissue that wanted to cover the hole eventually the hole was not as deep as it heeled from within. Thrush is still a battle with this mare - and we have had a minor drought this summer and the pastures are dry and her pen dry - we have changed feeds - changed bedding (she now has no bedding in her stall or run) and it just seems to be her.

I think looking into deep thrush is a good start.
She's shedding her frog right now. Maybe a good time to do some soaking while the frog is a little more exposed.
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