Nerving - The Horse Forum
 6Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 13 Old 04-05-2019, 08:16 AM Thread Starter
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 24,823
• Horses: 7
Nerving

I have NOT talked to my vet OR my farrier.

I am merely looking into a possibility. NO decisions have been made - nor am I at the point of a decision.

Riley was diagnosed with Navicular about 6 years ago. At that time I switched to a master farrier. Riley is sound MOST of the time. He does have off days that go for a week to a month. Sometimes it's minimally noticeable and sometimes it's a bigger gimp.

He received a Tildren shot about four or five years ago. He now received Osphos about once per year, sometimes twice. He should get his next Osphos shot in about a month when we do their teeth.

He has NOT had a new set of x-rays taken in the last couple years.

He gets lightly ridden and does not show anymore. I only ride around the horse but would love to use him on trail.

I have a few friends (lesson barns) that have nerved some horses with good results. They of course did it so that the horses could continue to earn them money. I do not have any friends that nerved a personal horse.

I have read a ton on nerving. Articles, blogs, forums, etc. I'm just wondering what peoples thoughts are?

He isn't on a daily pain maintenance plan because most of the time he is sound. I did have him on buteless for a month or two and I can't decide if it was helpful or not. I may try it again and write a daily log so I can see if I feel like it does anything.

My farrier does an excellent job - I am not here to talk about what he should or shouldn't do for shoes or barefoot. The horse was lame before I started using this farrier. He followed vet orders before doing his own thing. It took a couple tries of this or that but we found something that works very well. So - the farrier is staying. His work is staying.

"Be a best friend, tell the truth, and overuse I love you
Go to work, do your best, don't outsmart your common sense
Never let your prayin knees get lazy
And love like crazy"
farmpony84 is offline  
post #2 of 13 Old 04-05-2019, 10:13 AM
Started
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 2,272
• Horses: 0
We have a Navicular mare and she is given Osphos 2 x per year and buted for hard rides. One thing I will say is that depending on the trails you ride trail riding is hard for Navicular horses. The down hills are especially painful. At the lesson barn my husband rides at there are a few horses that have been nerve blocked. The nerves grow back over time or reroute the pain. this is not a permanent solution and can end up causing more damage.

I am not sure how old your horse is or how tough the trails are you plan to ride but take into consideration that those nerves will grow back or reroute and the condition may be more painful after that happens
carshon is offline  
post #3 of 13 Old 04-05-2019, 10:34 AM Thread Starter
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 24,823
• Horses: 7
@carshon - he's twelve and I really have only trail ridden him a couple times because I'm afraid it will be too long a ride for him. He does fine being ridden around the house. I always see a good difference after the Osphos shot - I may up it to twice per year as well. (He is 12).

I tried pads for the winter which worked well on frozen ground but then he went lame because of the pressure from the pads (as his hoof grew and the pads settled). We removed the pads this trim and he is doing much better. When he does go "off" it takes a while to go sound again. It's not like I can get new shoes and bam he's better tomorrow. It takes a week or two.

I talked to a vendor at the horse expo a couple years ago - he insisted navicular horses should have four shoes or no shoes. He says the 2 in the front cause added pressure but he's the only one I've really heard say that.

"Be a best friend, tell the truth, and overuse I love you
Go to work, do your best, don't outsmart your common sense
Never let your prayin knees get lazy
And love like crazy"
farmpony84 is offline  
post #4 of 13 Old 04-05-2019, 10:36 AM
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 8,385
• Horses: 0
I have ridden several that were partially nerved so they were not "dead" to foot pain and no feeling...
They were able to feel their feet and where they placed them but the actual "pain" sensation was removed...
That said, I can also tell you the nerves do regenerate and grow back sometimes in "balls" that are really painful.
I have also ridden a horse who was not nerved but had nerve freezing done to reduce pain but allow sensation/feeling so the horse was "safe" to ride as a schoolie.
It was done with liquid nitrogen, caused some nasty burns where it was done on the legs, but they healed and hair regrew..
That horse did w/t/c and jumped beginner riders over low fences...
He loved to trail ride, but the trails he did were flat, level and few rocks or the kind of roots that were problematic to any horse.
This horse also went with 4 shoes or could go with front shoes and trim behind...


As you know, navicular once arrived...it stays except for a very few.
Best hope is to maintain and keep progression at bay as long as possible...
But, regardless of what you do a navicular horse..one who is pain riddled or has been nerved/froze moves different.
I've dealt with enough I can see it..no xrays needed, you know it when you see it.
If partial nerving/freezing gives the horse some relief, then go for it.
Take the best of post procedure care of the patient and then return them to work they love to do..
I've seen some horses treated never need a retreating done and then some who it bought them 3 months of good and then a return gradually to not-so-good...
Ultimately, a decision at some point needs made of what to do...
I would not personally under any circumstance do a full-nerving of my horse...
One fully nerved no longer can feel anything and the danger to horse as a riding companion is just to great and even in my pasture that has some uneven ground...I wish to not find my horse on 3 legs and a shattered limb he now suffers from.
If my option is full nerve or euthanasia...for me, euthanasia it would be.

But to do a partial nerve or freeze....yes.
It buys you time to enjoy and be riding companions yet.
Complete nerving...no, not to my horse.

...
jmo...
loosie likes this.

The worst day is instantly better when shared with my horse.....
horselovinguy is offline  
post #5 of 13 Old 04-09-2019, 04:39 PM
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 18,709
• Horses: 0
Ok so if you don't want to consider options to shoeing & conventional 'treatment'(not trying sound judgemental btw, we all have our reasons...), you need to understand that 'navicular' is not going to get better, it will get gradually worse. It is still 'incureably' progressive when treated conventionally. I dont actually know that there is any way aside from well managed bare(with padded boots where needed) that can actually improve health & soundness, or at least halt progression, if it's gone too far to heal.

& so the best you can do in that case is palliative care until the horse is 'too far gone' for any of that to keep him comfortable. 'Nerving' is generally the final palliative option.

The reasons it is a final resort thing is that it can harm the foot more, with scar tissue etc. Lack of feeling in the foot(full or partial) can lead to other injuries, clumsiness, much faster progression of the actual damage. And nerves can grow back, even join up wrongly. So it's often not a permanent palliative & not without serious 'side effects'.

I also would probly not ride a nerve horse for the above reasons.

BTW, just a definition thing, but if a horse can be made comfortable artificially - with shoes, boots, nerving, whatever, but is lame when bare, I would not call that sound. I'd call it not lame when...

If the horse is apparently ok but noticeably better after Osphos etc, then I'd consider that he wasn't as ok as I thought before it. Therefore I'd consider ramping up the 'treatment', be that just palliative or otherwise.
Foxhunter likes this.

Some info I've found helpful; [COLOR=Lime][B]www.horseforum.com/horse-health/hoof-lameness-info-horse-owners-89836/
For taking critique pics; [COLOR=Lime][B]https://www.horseforum.com/members/41...res-128437.jpg
loosie is offline  
post #6 of 13 Old 04-09-2019, 07:55 PM Thread Starter
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 24,823
• Horses: 7
We have done so many different types of shoes and even tried barefoot actually. My farrier even made shoes for him so I don't want you to think we haven't tried many different options (vet and farrier suggested). We have found a method that works 90% of the time so that's why I wasn't looking for shoe/trim advice.

I know that Navicular is progressive - I know there is no cure. I also know he needs a new set of X-rays to see where we are at. The Osphos does seem to help and I may bump it up to twice per year. He rarely gets ridden and not much more than 15 minutes at a time when he does get ridden (bareback w/ a halter). Sometimes I just sit on him while he grazes. I would like to ride him on trail some day but not sure it will be an option ever.

As I said before - this is just a thought process I am going through.
loosie likes this.

"Be a best friend, tell the truth, and overuse I love you
Go to work, do your best, don't outsmart your common sense
Never let your prayin knees get lazy
And love like crazy"
farmpony84 is offline  
post #7 of 13 Old 04-09-2019, 08:41 PM
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 18,709
• Horses: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by farmpony84 View Post
We have done so many different types of shoes and even tried barefoot
You know me... can't leave it alone on that note tho... just wondering what 'tried barefoot' meant to you. Don't feel compelled to answer if you don't want tho. If you ignore this I'll get back in my box!

Quote:
I know that Navicular is progressive - I know there is no cure. I also know he needs a new set of X-rays to see where we are at. The Osphos does seem to help and I may bump it up to twice per year.
Yeah it's progressive & incurable IF it's just treated conventionally, palliatively. And of course, depends how far progressed whether it's completely curable regardless - sometimes palliative measures are indeed the only option - but it can generally be greatly improved if it's not too far gone.

As for 'needing' xrays, be interesting to know what they look like, but I wouldn't say 'need'. You know they'll get worse & you just have to manage him to keep him comfortable, regardless what rads show.

As for the osphos, yeah, did see you said you were thinking of upping, and that you said he was noticably better after the shots, so my comment was by way of meaning yes, I would do this more frequently, try to find a balance that he gets treatment *before* he gets sore again.

Some info I've found helpful; [COLOR=Lime][B]www.horseforum.com/horse-health/hoof-lameness-info-horse-owners-89836/
For taking critique pics; [COLOR=Lime][B]https://www.horseforum.com/members/41...res-128437.jpg
loosie is offline  
post #8 of 13 Old 04-10-2019, 08:21 AM Thread Starter
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 24,823
• Horses: 7
WELL @loosie ! The barefoot was done actually at your suggestion about six years ago. I think we gave it about 6 months if I remember correctly and it did help in some ways - the foot actually went from a 00 to a 0 I think? I can't remember now but it did go up a size. Over time we have gotten it to widen out quite a bit - It's actually at a weird size now, you can't just buy a shoe off the shelf and have it fit perfectly.

I don't know if you remember the whole navicular ordeal... When it all started - the vet AND the farrier (the old farrier) all thought it was in the shoulder and back area. We had actually had a few lameness evals on him. I had the chiropractor and went through 3 english saddles and a couple western ones trying to get the right fit - spent tons of money on orthopedic pads, then had the vet decide it was in the pelvis area (he had fractured it when he was younger) and blah blah blah. We even put him on Adequan at that time - you know that stuff is not cheap!

So then I started googling things and asking questions on the forum and ended up calling the vet and asking for another lameness check and this time I wanted x-rays of the hooves.

It was a large practice with four or five vets so he had been seen by two different ones by then. This was the third vet - she was an older women who owned the clinic. It was hard to see but she did find the spot on the x-ray and felt confident with the diagnosis.

That's when we were given the shorten the toe raise the heal use aluminum wedge treatment plan. My farrier followed it but the shoes constantly came off and it was only sort of working. I also got him the Tildren shot. The Tildren shot was really new at that time and so we had to send the x-rays to the board to get permission to have the shot sent from the UK. It did seem to work some but as time went on and I was able to access the research it really didn't look like there was much difference if you did another shot and at 1200 bucks - I wasn't going to try it again.

Somewhere in there I switched to different farrier. He was very well known and I had used him a million years before. He's a master farrier and has been doing it since the 70's. (He was actually an army farrier). He followed the vets orders for a while and then we went barefoot for a long while before he started making the shoes. It took about two years (because you can't try this for 6 weeks and then switch to that for 6 weeks and know that something is working unless you really see a problem). What we have going now is what has worked the best for us.

So then we did the Osphos shot and I do see a difference for about 6-8 months when I do that one. He's actually due for that one now. Those shots are only about 500 so I think I'm going to up them to twice per year for now.

The nerving thought is just kind of a what if right now...just a thought rolling around in my head.

"Be a best friend, tell the truth, and overuse I love you
Go to work, do your best, don't outsmart your common sense
Never let your prayin knees get lazy
And love like crazy"
farmpony84 is offline  
post #9 of 13 Old 04-10-2019, 10:26 AM
Started
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 2,272
• Horses: 0
Your Osphos shot is $500? Wow! I pay about $200 from Allivet and have it shipped here to my house - my vet will write the prescription and administer the shot but they do not carry it at the practice so I order on-line. See if you can order on line and save some money. I still pay for the farm call to have the vet administer the shot or I trailer to the clinic. If I remember correctly you can give the shot as often as 4 X per year.
carshon is offline  
post #10 of 13 Old 04-10-2019, 01:54 PM Thread Starter
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 24,823
• Horses: 7
Quote:
Originally Posted by carshon View Post
Your Osphos shot is $500? Wow! I pay about $200 from Allivet and have it shipped here to my house - my vet will write the prescription and administer the shot but they do not carry it at the practice so I order on-line. See if you can order on line and save some money. I still pay for the farm call to have the vet administer the shot or I trailer to the clinic. If I remember correctly you can give the shot as often as 4 X per year.

I will look into that! The Osphos shot was $500 with my old vet. I actually switched vets this year so I'm not sure exactly what the cost will be with the new vet. I shall found out.

"Be a best friend, tell the truth, and overuse I love you
Go to work, do your best, don't outsmart your common sense
Never let your prayin knees get lazy
And love like crazy"
farmpony84 is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the The Horse Forum forums, you must first register.

Already have a Horse Forum account?
Members are allowed only one account per person at the Horse Forum, so if you've made an account here in the past you'll need to continue using that account. Please do not create a new account or you may lose access to the Horse Forum. If you need help recovering your existing account, please Contact Us. We'll be glad to help!

New to the Horse Forum?
Please choose a username you will be satisfied with using for the duration of your membership at the Horse Forum. We do not change members' usernames upon request because that would make it difficult for everyone to keep track of who is who on the forum. For that reason, please do not incorporate your horse's name into your username so that you are not stuck with a username related to a horse you may no longer have some day, or use any other username you may no longer identify with or care for in the future.



User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Nerving... farmpony84 Horse Health 28 01-04-2019 06:39 PM
Question about nerving Oxer Horse Health 17 09-08-2013 01:32 AM
Nerving Rachelle Webb Horse Health 2 10-21-2011 06:54 PM
Injecting and Nerving. Good or bad? .Delete. Horse Health 7 09-06-2011 10:27 PM
What is Nerving? SavvyHill Horse Health 5 07-12-2010 08:28 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome