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post #11 of 22 Old 09-20-2010, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by ~*~anebel~*~ View Post
While barefoot is one option, for a competition horse it is a very, very hard decision to make because it does basically mean that the horse needs to be laid up for 3-4 months. I would definitely get a corrective farrier with experience working on competition horses out to discuss your options with your vet. One product that I have heard a lot of good about that can allow the horse to be "barefoot" but still allows work in good footing is Equi pak.
Anabel, I think a horse would only need to be laid-up for so long if there is a serious issue. And if there is such a serious issue, then better 3 - 4 months now than a year with a potentially chronic isssue that forever has to be managed. I don't think that is the case here though it is hard to tell with just a couple of pics.

As for Equi pak -- isn't that the stuff that seals off the entire sole? If so, I would be careful with it. Sounds like a means to thrush rather than a means to an end.
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post #12 of 22 Old 09-20-2010, 05:15 PM
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There are other options too for horses that need shoes but also need to let the hoof grow some without the trauma of having shoes nailed on.

*Now keep in mind that I don't know much about these products since I have never used them, I just did a search for alternative options*

There are glue on shoes
Anvil Brand Shoe Co. - Mustad Easy Glu #00
Glue On Horseshoes by Sound Horse Technologies
Renegade(R) Pro-Comp Glue-On (though I am not sure I like the fact that these have a solid sole.

And here is the Equipack that anabel mentioned
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post #13 of 22 Old 09-20-2010, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthernMama View Post
Anabel, I think a horse would only need to be laid-up for so long if there is a serious issue. And if there is such a serious issue, then better 3 - 4 months now than a year with a potentially chronic isssue that forever has to be managed. I don't think that is the case here though it is hard to tell with just a couple of pics.

As for Equi pak -- isn't that the stuff that seals off the entire sole? If so, I would be careful with it. Sounds like a means to thrush rather than a means to an end.
Farriers that I have talked to about hoof balance issues and re balancing them barefoot have mostly all earmarked 3 cycles of trimming to really fix the issue. Being that this is a competition and not a pleasure horse that does basically mean that he is laid up for that period as work performed by a dressage, jumping or eventing horse (and probably most other performance horses, I don't have experience with others though) is strenuous enough to require shoeing. Basic walk trot and canter is all that can really be done without shoes and the first cycle without them the horse is usually just sore.

There are risks with any type of farrier work. You can get hot nails and poorly fitted shoes with traditional shoeing. The key is to mitigate the risk by applying the product correctly and on a freshly trimmed and clean hoof. Plus I'm sure the horse is stabled in clean bedding and turned out on in suitable pasture.
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post #14 of 22 Old 09-20-2010, 08:20 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks everyone for your help and input and going out of your way to help.

I shot pics to my vet via PM on Facebook and she replied about the abcess and the crack is ther due to that. She doesn't know much about hooves and angles and it is not her specialty, but that the cracks are superficial. She said that I should go with what my Farrier says because he is the professional in this department and deals with hooves on a daily basis, where she does not.

I showed the pictures to a friend who is a barefoot trimmer on facebook and she saw old flaring, and explained that the crack in the front right was due to pressure on his toes, and the other because of the abcess. She saw nothing "serious" or anything to be all up in arms about. She expalined that Nelson's feet want to naturally grow forward because he lands toe first. She said that is very common and she see's this often. The old flarring takes a long time to fix, she explained it is a continuous ongoing process that can take many trims to correct, but it sounds like my farrier is addressing it and working on correcting it.

She said she has seen worse and Nelson looked bad because he was due for reshoeing. She didn't think his feet were concerning. She said that his feet look a hell of alot better than what they did with the previous Farrier, and she can see that a nice new hoof wall is growing down, with a tighter connection with less flare. She said she has a good feeling that my Farrier is doing a good job.

My Farrier called me when he was done Nelson and pretty much said exactly what my friend said. He explained why he used the wedge pads, was because again, Nelson's feet want to naturally grow forward and land on his toes. The wedge pads were there to manipulate the heels to come back to where they need to be, so he can get he angles right. The wedge pads did their job, and he removed them. He too said the same thing about the cracks and that they were superficial.

There was a barefoot trimmer at the barn today, she was there doing clients horses and took time out to look at Nelson and said my Farrier is doing a great job in taking care of Nelson's feet. There's old flaring, but she said it looks like my Farrier is addressing that. She said the same thing about Nelson's hoof growth, wanting to grow forward because he lands toe first. She liked where his heel is now. She said Nelson looks like he's been doing well thus far and will continue to. He's moving well, there is no sign of discomfort. She said it looks like my Farrier is doing a competant job with his feet. She said the same thing about the new wall coming in and said there's no "concern".

I was advised by both Barefoot Trimmers to get Oil Of Oregeno to put on the cracks, once a week to help the healing process and to prevent anything from getting in there. She also said the cracks are superficial.

So I'm pretty happy with the advice and help I got and pleased that other professionals were pleased with where my farrier is bringing Nelson's hooves.

Thanks again everyone.


Last edited by MIEventer; 09-20-2010 at 08:27 PM.
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post #15 of 22 Old 09-20-2010, 09:34 PM
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Thanks for the info MIE. Truly it's hard to see things from pictures. I would not have said the crack to the coronet was superficial, but pictures DO lie.

The only other thing I can comment on then is perhaps ask your farrier about keeping the nails tight between visits. I don't know anything about that; maybe there is something that can be done.

I still would encourage you to learn more about this if you have time. It's easier to talk with our professionals if we have more info to ask questions.


Anabel -- 3 trims to rebalance sounds reasonable. (It can be anywhere from 1 to ??? trims to rebalance.) Not being able to compete without shoes does not sound reasonable. But to each their own. I know I have to keep my mouth shut at many shows because I am appalled at the state of some competition horses hooves. The drafts I saw a couple of weeks ago were absolutely pitiful: flaring so bad that the bottom 1 inch of hoof all the way around was almost parallel to the ground :(
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post #16 of 22 Old 09-21-2010, 10:37 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks NorthernMama

What causes the nails to become lose between appointments? Were they more suseptable to becoming lose because of the wedge pads that were put on? I would assume because his walls are brittle? Would applying a topcal like Keratex help?

He is already getting Farrier's Formula, but I wonder if that really does the job that they claim, or am I wasting my money?

The ingredients for both feeds he is getting is:

Purina Equine Senior

wheat middlings, dehydrated alfalfa, cane molasses, ground peanut hulls, dried beet pulp, dehulled soybean meal, ground soybean hulls, stablilized rice bran, soybean oil, wheat flour, vegetable oil, ground corn, flaxseed, calcium carbonate, salt thiamine mononitrate, citric acid, l-lysine, choline chloride, iron oxide, propionic acid (a preservative), ascorbic acid, vitamin E supplement, sorbitan monostearate, biotin, calcium pantothenate, vitamin E, riboflavin supplement, folic acid, anise flavor, fenugreek flavor, vitamin B-12 supplement, niacin supplement, tocopherols (a preservative), vitamin A supplement, xanthan gum, zinc oxide, copper sulfate, calcium iodate, magnesium oxide, cobalt carbonate, ferrous carbonate, vitamin D3 supplement, manganous oxide, dl-methionine, sodium selenite

I am thinking I might change him to this other Senior product that TSC sells:

Nutrena Life Design Senior

wheat middlings, dehydrated alfalfa meal, peanut hulls, ricebran, cane molasses, soybean hulls, rice hulls, dehulled soybean meal, dried plain beet pulp, corn distillers dried grains with solubles, brewers rice, yeast culture, ground flax, vitamin A supplement, vitamin D supplement, vitamin E supplement, vitamin B-12 supplement, riboflavin supplement, folic acid, biotin, thiamine mononitrate, dl-methionine, salt, natural and artificial flavors added, lecithin, magnesium oxide, manganese sulfate, manganous oxide, ferrous sulfate, ferrous carbonate, copper chloride, copper sulfate, zinc oxide, zinc sulfate, calcium iodate, cobalt carbonate, sodium selenite, zinc methionine complex, copper lysine complex, manganese methionine complex, cobalt glucoheptonate, ethylenediamine dihydriodide, lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product dehydrated, bifidobacterium thermophilum fermentation product dehydrated, enterococcus faecium fermentation product dehydrated, dried whey, linseed oil, casein, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of vitamin K activity), niacin supplement, choline chloride, calcium carbonate, potassium chloride, iron oxide, d-calcium pantothenate, soybean oil, calcium propionate (a preservative), ascorbic acid

~~~~

The latter seems to have much better ingredients eh?

Here is the Purina Ultium he is getting:

Dried Beet Pulp, Wheat Middlings, Stabilized Rice Bran, Ground Soybean Hulls, Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, Ground Oat Hulls, Ground Corn, Soybean Oil, Dehulled Soybean Meal, Flaxseed, Dried Whey, Calcium Lignin Sulfonate, Cane Molasses, Salt, DL-Methionine, Thiamine, Calcium Carbonate, L-Lysine, Monocalcium Phosphate, Dicalcium Phosphate, Citric Acid, Iron Oxide, Natural Flavor, DL-Alpha Tocopheryl Acetate, Sodium Selenite, Choline Chloride, Cyanocobalamin, Nicotinic Acid, Calcium Pantothenate, L-Tryptophan, L-Threonine, Vitamin A Acetate, Ferrous Carbonate, Manganous Oxide, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Magnesium Oxide, Riboflavin, Cholecalciferol, Calcium Iodate, Cobalt Carbonate.

He gets his mineral/vit blocks in his stall and out in his pasture and they are in his paddock. He is out on 80 acres of pasture all day, and in his 3 acre paddock at night where he stuffs his face into a round bale.

I would like to think he is getting the right nutritional balance he needs, but I am no Equine Nutritionist.

I'm buying some Oil Of Oregeno as suggested to me by both Barefoot Trimmers, to put on the cracks once a week. They said even though the cracks are superficial, bacteria can still get in there and make things worse, and I want to prevent that. I wonder if soaking his feet in warm water and epsom salts would help?

I am most definately going to be working towards educating myself on hooves and hoof angles and hoof health. This is a department where I am "lack thereof" and need to be more ontop of things.

I appreciate your help :)

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post #17 of 22 Old 09-21-2010, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by MIEventer View Post
What causes the nails to become lose between appointments? Were they more suseptable to becoming lose because of the wedge pads that were put on? I would assume because his walls are brittle? Would applying a topcal like Keratex help?
I don't know why some nails stay tight and others don't. You'll have to ask your farrier or maybe Kevin's horses will chime in if he is still here. I think he was/is a poster that knows more about shoeing. As for applying a topical - topicals will not help hoof wall that is already grown. You must wait for new healthy wall to grow down and ensure as best as possible that the old wall below that doesn't weaken the new growth. This is done through proper trimming and, like you say, preventing infection. So, I would be inclined to brush on only something like ACV daily (it won't hurt and might help), but maybe even a 50/50 bleach/water or peroxide once a week. I wouldn't go too often with the bleach or peroxide as they can do damage to good tissue also. There are products that you can massage into the coronet to help stimulate and promote healthy growth. I have used these products with some success. When you look at my horses' hooves, you can see about 1 to 1-1/2 inches of a cuticle like growth now. When they first came here, they didn't have that. If they have issues, that growth seems to be the first indicator to me.

Quote:
He is already getting Farrier's Formula, but I wonder if that really does the job that they claim, or am I wasting my money?
I don't know what is in Farrier's Formula. I'm sure I've read about it on this forum though. Maybe do a search. A good supplement for hoof and hair is biotin, which I didn't see in the list of ingredients you provided. And yes, I agree that I think the second product seems better -- more rice based which will keep weight on your older horse, IMO. But, I am not an expert on that either. You probably know more about that than I do.

Quote:
I'm buying some Oil Of Oregeno as suggested to me by both Barefoot Trimmers, to put on the cracks once a week. They said even though the cracks are superficial, bacteria can still get in there and make things worse, and I want to prevent that. I wonder if soaking his feet in warm water and epsom salts would help?
I'm not familiar with Oil of Oregano. As long as it doesn't seal the hoof, I'd try it. How water soluble is it? The problem with most topicals is that they seal in all the bad stuff along with any good. So, the bad takes over :(Those products that stay on forever aren't a good idea in my books. As for soaking, lots of people swear by it. I have hardly used it. Maybe loosie has comments on that. Something else you might consider is scrubbing his walls with dishsoapy water, then rinsing well and drying before putting on your OoOregano. I would also try to focus the OoO on the cracks only, as best as possible, rather than paint it on the entire wall. Or try the ACV.

I'll see if there is anything in my books about soaking. If I find something I'll post back later today. Must be off to work now...
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post #18 of 22 Old 09-22-2010, 09:26 PM
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MIE -- I didn't find anything specific about soaking in epsom salt-water for cracks. I'd try it a couple of times over a couple of weeks, but pay close attention. I'm thinking that while it may indeed help with bacteria/infection, it might also be a negative impact on the cracks themselves.
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post #19 of 22 Old 09-22-2010, 09:50 PM
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I can't comment on trimming, but with feet that cracked up , the LAST thing they need is water. Those nail holes are so big and nails are so loose because the hooves are constantly expanding and contracting with between the mega dry summer we had combined with being hosed off after exercise. My horse had the same problems this summer to a lesser degree. If you have bathe your horse, slather vasoline on his hooves first to keep the water out. After the next shoeing, pick up either a wax ring they sell for installing toilets or a thing of wood putty and keep the nail holes covered. Purchase a product called Hoof Alive. It's about $38, but well worth the money. It conditions and protects the hooves from moisture while still letting them breathe. It literally fills in old sand cracks and holes. I've only used it for 6 weeks and cannot believe how useful a product it is. If you have a few weeks between events, maybe leave the shoes off completely for a few weeks and use Cavallo boots or something similar to cushion his feet and allow the hooves to grow in a bit before putting shoes back on. Just remember, WATER BAD. Keep them dry but conditioned. None of that slather on hoof oil tar stuff. It just makes them mushy. Good luck.

You just have to see your distance...you don't have to like it.
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post #20 of 22 Old 09-23-2010, 10:07 AM
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Again, emphasising that I appreciate this is just my opinion & experience, that I don't expect everyone to hold it, let alone follow it without learning about the principles, to get some idea of who's opinions, 'expert' or otherwise, may be worth considering...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ~*~anebel~*~ View Post
get your vet and your farrier together
Agree thoroughly *IF* you have ones that really understand what's going on. Unfortunately it seems that MI needs to keep looking. Perhaps MI your vet can refer you to another who is knowledgeable about hooves? She's probably likely to be able to find you someone I would think? And a 'hoofspert'<G> vet is likely to know of some good farriers too, you would hope.

Quote:
decision to make because it does basically mean that the horse needs to be laid up for 3-4 months. ....allow the horse to be "barefoot" but still allows work in good footing is Equi pak.
The 'laying up' is not generally the case, except in very severe problems. Generally a horse can work just as well, if not better with standard boots or such. Generally the more exercise the sooner, the better.

I too have heard great things about Vettec products, tho they're a bit too expensive over here for me to speak from experience ATM... I have corresponded quite a bit with Vettec about their products and understood the EquiPak was really to be used with shoes tho, not tough enough to stay on for bare feet. Their Sole Guard, however, is designed to be used to go the distance on bare feet. And NM, btw, they make an 'Equipak CS' which is infused with copper sulphate, which is specifically for treating & avoiding thrush. They actually sell kits of one of each & advise for horses susceptible to thrush(should treat active infection first), you apply the CS around the frog & heel and the Sole Guard over the top.

Quote:
Being that this is a competition and not a pleasure horse that does basically mean that ..... is strenuous enough to require shoeing. Basic walk trot and canter is all that can really be done without shoes and the first cycle without them the horse is usually just sore.
Perhaps this is true from a shoer doing 'barefoot' perspective, but IME it is not necessary. No, generally performance horses do not need horse shoes just because of what they do. No, 'basic' w/t/c is not all a barefoot horse, or a horse without shoes can manage(You'll find plenty of examples if you look, of high performance bare foot horses). Aside from uncommonly seriously lame(already) cases, the horse should not be sorer(should also be adequately protected for work he is not up to bare) after the first trim, unless he was already lame. I consider it generally(there are of course exceptions to everything) farrier error if a horse is not at least the same if not better, after a trim, shoe pull, whatever, than he was before.

Quote:
I shot pics to my vet via PM on Facebook and she replied about the abcess and the crack is ther due to that. She doesn't know much about hooves and angles and it is not her specialty, but that the cracks are superficial. She said that I should go with what my Farrier says because he is the professional in this department
Oh, I don't recall you mentioning the abscess on that hoof sorry. It does look like there's one burst there, but I didn't know whether was a before or after thing or just part of the general infection of that crack. The abscess is likely one symptom of the problem & may have been a sort of 'final straw' for the integrity of the hoof in that area. But what of the other cracks, the one bad one in the other foot & the smaller mid way cracks?

While I don't see this sort of problem(based only on those pics & what you've told, so by no means more than guess based on experience) as major and with the right care the hooves could be soon healthy, I also wouldn't call them 'superficial' cracks either. My big problem with the above is that she has told you she knows little about hooves and yet she's willing to 'diagnose' through a few pics that the problem is superficial & to trust your farrier because he's a farrier. Yes, he does work with hooves full time(I suppose) but is that all she's judging his 'expertise' on? If so, IME that's FAR from a reasonable presumption, given how many bad farriers are kicking around & that it's not her field at all.

Quote:
She expalined that Nelson's feet want to naturally grow forward because he lands toe first. She said that is very common and she see's this often. The old flarring takes a long time to fix, she explained it is a continuous ongoing process that can take many trims to correct, but it sounds like my farrier is addressing it and working on correcting it.
I don't understand how she/farrier has arrived at the premise that Nelson's feet want to naturally grow forward or that it's because he lands toe first, or that your friend got that from this information only(?). Toe first landings, generally due to heel sensitivity are a common problem. I am interested to know how you think your farrier's addressing it by putting him further on his toes with wedges, etc? But it has occurred to me I may have it wrong, because maybe the 'wedge pads' are also/actually wedgelike frog support pads? Can see how they're helpful. Just personally think that approach is also best done without shoes.

That all said, if after doing your homework you decide that shoes with pads, whatever, is the way to go, if the nail clenches come loose, you can always hit them down gently with a small hammer if that's all that's wrong. Get your farrier to show you if you're unsure. The nails are probably looser because of the pads, them being a yielding, compressable material. That's OK, but they're best kept tight, so keep an eye on them. I believe it's important to know how to remove a shoe if you keep shod horses, as bad injuries can result from loose or overgrown shoes, and your farrier should be happy to show you how to do these things, along with learning what you're seeing in the hoof & what signs to pay attention to.

Regarding the feed list you gave, so far as I'm concerned, not sure about the value of wheat middlings & peanut hulls, not looked into them, but personally I wouldn't feed anything with molasses(in the top % ingreds for the Senior feeds!), wheat flour, corn or distillers grain. or other grain without very good reason either.

Diet & nutrition seem to be another one of those minefields of opinions! I personally choose to use a (independent of feed co's) nutritional service who have the scientific information to show why & how certain diets are good, bad or otherwise. I subscribe to a mob called feedxl.com who also have a great program for balancing nutrition & analysing the diet of individual horses & situations (cheap too & well worth a look IMO).

Anyway, hope my feedback's helped, not hindered, & given food for thought to your choices. Interested to see further pics if you want to post them.


Some info I've found helpful; [COLOR=Lime][B]www.horseforum.com/horse-health/hoof-lameness-info-horse-owners-89836/
For taking critique pics; [COLOR=Lime][B]https://www.horseforum.com/members/41...res-128437.jpg
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