Best Option: Grain, Oats, Alt? - The Horse Forum
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post #1 of 32 Old 09-29-2019, 06:04 PM Thread Starter
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Best Option: Grain, Oats, Alt?

I have a mare who is currently getting oats and horse logic pro (supplement). She is also getting a probiotic 1x a day (platinum balance). She is moving back home because she is recovering from throat surgery, so she isn't in much work. She gets 5 flakes of alfalfa a day and about a pound of oats a day. She isn't a hard keeper.

I have had her on Triple Crown Senior before and liked her on it. I only switched from it because the barn I moved her to only fed oats. I liked her better on the TC Senior, but I don't think she needs the 5 lbs a day they recommend. Should I switch her back to grain? Maybe try a ration balancer? It doesn't need to be TC, but they do add prebiotics and probiotics to their grain.

Thank you
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post #2 of 32 Old 09-29-2019, 06:12 PM
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That's the only kind of grain I feed now, is oats. Half cup that's it, and Hoffman's minerals, soaked beet pulp, alfalfa cubes. Sometimes I even skip the oats.

I am not here to promote anythingNo, that's not true, I am here to promote everything equestrian and everyone enjoying horses!
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post #3 of 32 Old 09-29-2019, 06:15 PM
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Oats are a grain.
Grain is the product you get from cereal crops, oats are cereal crops.
Things like TC Senior are a mix of various things including added vitamins and minerals. It claims to be grain free but it does contain wheat middlings and brewers grains

If you donít want to spend time balancing your horses feed youíre better off to use something like that. Oats on their own arenít a balanced feed.
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post #4 of 32 Old 09-29-2019, 08:26 PM
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As jaydee says, nutritional balance is important & oats & alfalfa don't give that on their own.

But especially(not only) if you're not feeding 'recommended quantity', I don't believe generic 'complete feeds' do either, necessarily. Despite marketing hype. Depends on not only what the feed is, it's analysis, but what the horse is getting from their basic diet - hay/grass & alfalfa for eg. So I think it's. Important to do at least a basic diet analysis before knowing what supplementary feed or supp will best 'fill the gaps'. To that end, Feedxl.com is one good online option for working that out.

Oats, being easier to digest & lower in starch/sugar than other grain, are the best cereal grain for horses, should you feel the need to feed an 'energy feed'. They're also high in phosphorus so can be a good part of the nutritional balance if fed appropriately.

While if your horse is an easy keeper I'd reconsider the need, if you're only feeding 1lb a day, over at least a couple of feeds(important to feed esp ingredients like that little & often), might be appropriate to keep them.

Alfalfa is a good, rich, high energy, reasonably low sugar feed imo. Being high energy, often too much for 'easy keepers' tho. Being rich but not well balanced nutritionally for horses, it should be considered carefully as to if/how much is best. Generally, according to a nutritionist friend, it's best to be no more than about 1/4 to 1/3 of the forage ration.

In addition, legumes can sometimes cause issue due to them containing 'phytohormones' so some don't like this - particularly soy - because of that.
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post #5 of 32 Old 10-31-2019, 12:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cef721 View Post
I have a mare who is currently getting oats and horse logic pro (supplement). She is also getting a probiotic 1x a day (platinum balance). She is moving back home because she is recovering from throat surgery, so she isn't in much work. She gets 5 flakes of alfalfa a day and about a pound of oats a day. She isn't a hard keeper.

I have had her on Triple Crown Senior before and liked her on it. I only switched from it because the barn I moved her to only fed oats. I liked her better on the TC Senior, but I don't think she needs the 5 lbs a day they recommend. Should I switch her back to grain? Maybe try a ration balancer? It doesn't need to be TC, but they do add prebiotics and probiotics to their grain.

Thank you
OK, I refuse to do ANOTHER dissertation on equine nutrition and digestion. I've done enough on here that people can look them up.

so I'll give the easy answer and tiny explanation.
NO GRAINS.....EVER.
People have been killing horses with grain for centuries by following a European tradition that has never been good for horses. They don't die right away. We kill them by shortening their lifespan. If I fed a person a diet high in sugar, saturated fat, and trans fats they would not die for many years, but eventually it would catch up with them and it would shorten their life (if something else didn't). Horses digestive system is designed to large volume of low quality (low nutritional) long fiber....which they cannot digest except for a specific variety of micro organism that live in their hindgut (cecum and large intestine) that live on the long fiber, breaking it down into something that is digestible for the horse. Grains are high is NSC. Just as humans do nee small amounts of fat, horses need small amounts of NSC in their diet (I round up to 15% since it's easier to remember than the 12-13%). NSC (non structural carbohydrates) is present varying degrees in grass (a lot in lush grass which is why lush grazing runs a risk of creating a problem) with some types having more than other. Same with hay (avoid rich hays). Grains are loaded with NSC. Oats have the lowest % at about 40-45% (and horses only need about 15%). Don't be duped by arguments supporting feeding grain. Secretariat was put down at 19 years of age due to a severe physical condition (laminitis) cause by a diet of oats and high quality hay. A multi million dollar stud "killed by kindness", because they fed him according to traditions as opposed to has nature intended by how it designed the horse over a period of 10 million years. Are we so naÔve to belief that 2,000 years of a bad diet will undo 10 million years of evolution?

Feed things that are low in NSC. There are plenty of foods that are very low in it. For example:
Beet pulp is a popular low NSC source of fiber which is also more nutritious than the best hay you can find.
Copra is a low NSC and is so easy to digest that it goes from the foregut (small intestines) to the liver so it has little or no impact on the hindgut.
Do a bit of research to find what you feel will work best for meeting your horses dietary needs for the work demands you put. But it you're told grain just walk away. They're sending down the same path they had Secretariat take.

Hey, I did it. No details on the microbes for starch, hindgut pH levels, etc... The truth is that there is so much to it that it's taught as university courses. There's no way I could put all of it (even if I remembered it all) in 20 post.
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post #6 of 32 Old 10-31-2019, 12:38 AM
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If you're interested in giving your horse the best diet, you can check out Dr Kellon! She offers online courses for equine nutrition, haven't taken it yet personally as it's $200 and I don't make money yet, but compared to the money you spend on horses anyway, I think it's well worth it

www.drkellon.com
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post #7 of 32 Old 10-31-2019, 11:41 AM
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Actually there are several courses offered and EACH course is $225. She also offers mini courses $55 each. As they are ongoing you pay $55 every two weeks for access if I read it correctly. She condenses the material and offers a question and answer format. Not sure how that works. As with any expert you are looking to learn from do your research to see if they are truly worth the investment of your time and money.
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post #8 of 32 Old 11-10-2019, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cef721 View Post
I have a mare who is currently getting oats and horse logic pro (supplement). She is also getting a probiotic 1x a day (platinum balance). She is moving back home because she is recovering from throat surgery, so she isn't in much work. She gets 5 flakes of alfalfa a day and about a pound of oats a day. She isn't a hard keeper.

I have had her on Triple Crown Senior before and liked her on it. I only switched from it because the barn I moved her to only fed oats. I liked her better on the TC Senior, but I don't think she needs the 5 lbs a day they recommend. Should I switch her back to grain? Maybe try a ration balancer? It doesn't need to be TC, but they do add prebiotics and probiotics to their grain.

Thank you
I feel like a broken record.
Do you know history repeats itself? BECAUSE NO ONE WAS PAYING ATTENTION THE FIRST TIME.
Do you know why people still feed their horses wrong? BECAUSE PEOPLE LOVE TO JUST FOLLOW BAD TRADTIONS. After all, everyone did for 1,000 years so it must me right. People did surgery with dirty, bloody instruments for 2,000 years, but that didn't make it right.
NEVER feed your poor horse ANY grain unless there is absolutely nothing else (not even enough weeds) and you need to prevent starvation. There is NOTHING that they can get from grain that they can't get from better sources which are not unhealthy for horses (ALL grains are unhealthy for horses....even oats). They all have massive amounts more of NSC than a horse should get (think fat in humans....we need it...brain has to have it...but we need only small amounts). Too much NSC is the silent, invisible killer that slowly kills horses (shortens their live span). It is 100% avoidable, but then that would not benefit the people who sell the oats (and other grains), rich hay, etc.... which puts too much NSC into their digestive tract.

I have refused to write any more of the full blown decertations on equine nutrition and digestion that I did on here a few years back. While very long, they were still shorter than a Reader's Digest version of what is in the university courses on the subjects. But it is a bit of that information from a thread I posted on last week.

I just wish people would stop believing all this crap that has been around and pushed for so long that it's accepted as truth. Even the parts that are true are horribly distorted (and I cover that in this thread I'm going to put the link to on here. Read the bacon example (I like that one....but I love bacon LOL)

This link is long, but it's shorter than the more detailed explanations I once would do (and it's microscopic compared to the courses on the subject LOL)

https://www.horseforum.com/horse-nut...post1970789371

They're always going to be bigger and stronger so you better always be smarter. (One of my grandfather's many pearls of wisdom)
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post #9 of 32 Old 11-10-2019, 11:47 AM
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LMAO....I didn't realize I'd already posted here.

They're always going to be bigger and stronger so you better always be smarter. (One of my grandfather's many pearls of wisdom)
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post #10 of 32 Old 11-12-2019, 05:18 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by its lbs not miles View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by cef721 View Post
I have a mare who is currently getting oats and horse logic pro (supplement). She is also getting a probiotic 1x a day (platinum balance). She is moving back home because she is recovering from throat surgery, so she isn't in much work. She gets 5 flakes of alfalfa a day and about a pound of oats a day. She isn't a hard keeper.

I have had her on Triple Crown Senior before and liked her on it. I only switched from it because the barn I moved her to only fed oats. I liked her better on the TC Senior, but I don't think she needs the 5 lbs a day they recommend. Should I switch her back to grain? Maybe try a ration balancer? It doesn't need to be TC, but they do add prebiotics and probiotics to their grain.

Thank you
I feel like a broken record.
Do you know history repeats itself? BECAUSE NO ONE WAS PAYING ATTENTION THE FIRST TIME.
Do you know why people still feed their horses wrong? BECAUSE PEOPLE LOVE TO JUST FOLLOW BAD TRADTIONS. After all, everyone did for 1,000 years so it must me right. People did surgery with dirty, bloody instruments for 2,000 years, but that didn't make it right.
NEVER feed your poor horse ANY grain unless there is absolutely nothing else (not even enough weeds) and you need to prevent starvation. There is NOTHING that they can get from grain that they can't get from better sources which are not unhealthy for horses (ALL grains are unhealthy for horses....even oats). They all have massive amounts more of NSC than a horse should get (think fat in humans....we need it...brain has to have it...but we need only small amounts). Too much NSC is the silent, invisible killer that slowly kills horses (shortens their live span). It is 100% avoidable, but then that would not benefit the people who sell the oats (and other grains), rich hay, etc.... which puts too much NSC into their digestive tract.

I have refused to write any more of the full blown decertations on equine nutrition and digestion that I did on here a few years back. While very long, they were still shorter than a Reader's Digest version of what is in the university courses on the subjects. But it is a bit of that information from a thread I posted on last week.

I just wish people would stop believing all this crap that has been around and pushed for so long that it's accepted as truth. Even the parts that are true are horribly distorted (and I cover that in this thread I'm going to put the link to on here. Read the bacon example (I like that one....but I love bacon LOL)

This link is long, but it's shorter than the more detailed explanations I once would do (and it's microscopic compared to the courses on the subject LOL)

https://www.horseforum.com/horse-nut...post1970789371


I guess I should have been more specific. By grain, I mean concentrate. She is now on Triple Crown Senior, as stated above, which is a low NSC concentrate. I cannot give her the calories she needs in just hay, even alfalfa. She already gets 3 meals a day, but she gets worked enough that she needs some supplementation.
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