Carbohydrate Load To Cause Laminitis Relapse - The Horse Forum
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post #1 of 13 Old 08-05-2020, 11:34 AM Thread Starter
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Carbohydrate Load To Cause Laminitis Relapse

Searching the net to find an approximate amount of carbohydrates that could cause a relapse of laminitis in an IR horse is not turning up much.


I've read people saying that their horse can just look across the fence at grass and go lame. Joking of course. A trimmer once told me he knew of a pony that went lame for 30 days on just one apple. But how did he know that was not another apple, or two or three or more involved.


Seems like there should be a study somewhere that establishes a possible parameter. Plenty of studies setting 10% NSC as the upper limit for daily intake but nothing for a one time intake of an amount of NSC, that I've found so far.


Anybody know of one?

What would Xenophon say?
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post #2 of 13 Old 08-05-2020, 12:04 PM
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I found you some "old" threads that might offer some of what you search for...
I know member Smilie who no longer is with us on Earth had IR horses and did in-depth research and shared a lot of what she found in her threads.
Maybe some of what you search for is here...
https://www.horseforum.com/horse-hea...initis-749842/
https://www.horseforum.com/horse-nut...w-they-745554/
https://www.horseforum.com/horse-hea...horses-723401/


There are times someone has a question or comment and I go, Smilie would of known exactly how to deal with that.
She was a researcher give her that, and her research saved her beloved horse from death...she stole him back when he developed IR and laminitis from complications.
She spoke of it often in her posts...and she willingly shared what she learned to save another the heartaches she endured.
Not sure where else you might find that but maybe KER {Kentucky Equine Research} might have information known about but not shared they would help you with.

Hope Hondo is OK...my thoughts are with you.
...
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post #3 of 13 Old 08-05-2020, 12:09 PM
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I donít, and I think itís because we are dealing with metabolism; every horse is going to be different.

For example, when Duke was diagnosed with metabolic issues in 2007, he never had a laminitic issue and never needed a grazing muzzle. I only cut his grazing time down.

Fast forward to 2012 and Joker founders big time and his insulin numbers are so high Cornell U. asked the vet for another vile of blood because they thought they messed up the test. The reading was still so high they told the lameness vet it was a miracle Joker was still alive.

So how DID that happen when both horses were on the same identical supplements & hay, and the same grass pasture for the same amount of hours each day.

Adding further to the conundrum, both horses are/were registered Tennessee Walkers.

While there is a baseline of starch values we have to follow, each horseís metabolism seems to make it impossible to know their exact tipping point or worse yet, when that tipping point might happen.

I sure as heck was not expecting to almost lose the second metabolic horse five years after the first horseís diagnosis ó- just when I was relaxing and thought I had things under control.

Also, FWIW, I could feed Duke a small amount of alfalfa but like your apple story, I kidded that Joker was not even allowed to smell the bale, lest he founder again. Joker could not tolerate alfalfa when he was at the peak of his insulin issues.
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I CAN'T ride 'em n slide 'em. I HAVE to lead 'em n feed 'em Thnx cowchick77.
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post #4 of 13 Old 08-05-2020, 12:41 PM
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I had put it in a couple of threads but would have to search. PM me a reminder so when at computer tomorrow I can pull it together for you. As with everything horses are individuals and there is a range. You have to optimize for your horse.

One of the threads was recent and broke down how many pounds of feed at different nsc provides how much sugar per meal.
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post #5 of 13 Old 08-05-2020, 04:04 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walkinthewalk View Post

So how DID that happen when both horses were on the same identical supplements & hay, and the same grass pasture for the same amount of hours each day.

Thanks horselovinguy. I was here then but don't recall the posts. Probably glanced at them if at all. Wasn't MY problem then. I was working on feet and saddle fit, the real problems, unless of course, you don't have a horse because if IR problems.


Walkinthewalk has me thinking. It's sort of clear now. There are horses that are prone to laminitis and those that are not. Both are on a continuum scale. Within the laminitis scale, Joker was in one spot while Duke was in another spot.


One tolerated a particular situation/environment, the other didn't.


I've been frustrated about the lack of information on how much it takes to induce laminitis in an IR horse. But I see now, as walkinthewalk pointed out (thank you), that 'how much' would vary with each horse.


I'd like to think there is some reasonable range of amounts of NSC that would cause the relapse, but then I'd have to ask what is the reasonable range of a laminitc prone horse.


Now I'm gonna wrap by asking walkinthewalk, what if someone had made a great big ole cookie full of sugar, starch, and flavored with molasses, maybe 6" in diameter by 2 or 3 inches thick, and Joker stumbled on it and ate it.


Do you think that would that put him to bed? Meaning relapse of course.

What would Xenophon say?
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post #6 of 13 Old 08-05-2020, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo View Post

Now I'm gonna wrap by asking walkinthewalk, what if someone had made a great big ole cookie full of sugar, starch, and flavored with molasses, maybe 6" in diameter by 2 or 3 inches thick, and Joker stumbled on it and ate it.


Do you think that would that put him to bed? Meaning relapse of course.
I do think it would but I think it would put him to permanent bed due to his hooves already being so compromised - and letís not forget that he is now on Prascend for Cushings, and his twice-fractured sacrum - all things to further compromise his ability to keep hanging in there

Jokerís last blood work was Fall, 2019 when he had to have another ACTH for Cushings - the vet wants him tested every six months.

Both ACTH and insulin numbers were well within normal range. A miracle considering where he was in 2012 and that I can still allow him to be horse and go to pasture without a muzzle.

Still-in-all, I remain on perpetually on edge.
.

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I CAN'T ride 'em n slide 'em. I HAVE to lead 'em n feed 'em Thnx cowchick77.
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post #7 of 13 Old 08-05-2020, 08:17 PM Thread Starter
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Ok, Joker is Cushings. Hondo is cleared for that. How about Duke? Is he Cushings? If not, that might go a ways explaining the difference.


So you think the 'said' cookie would destabilize Joker but not permanently. How long? I know you don't know and can't defend an answer but I'm only interested in what is your 'feel' based on the time your experience with him.


Another thing I'll throw out for you and others that seems strange is that since his major setback the first of last March, (which happened under suspicious circumstances), his periople has been moving down his hoofwall. It is now about 1 1/4" wide reflecting the growth in the last 5 months.


Not sure I'm using periople correctly. I'm referring to the band below the hairline that is usually about 1/2" wide and flaky but smooths off lower down. The flaky band is now about 1 1/4" wide.



Does that relate to anything anyone has ever heard of?

What would Xenophon say?
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post #8 of 13 Old 08-05-2020, 10:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo View Post
Ok, Joker is Cushings. Hondo is cleared for that. Joker wasnít diagnosed with Cushings until 2019. He didnít have it when he was diagnosed IR in 2012. His ACTH was also normal up thru 2016.

I hadnít had blood work done on him again until 2019 because I was pretty sure he had Cushings.



How about Duke? Is he Cushings? If not, that might go a ways explaining the difference.Duke passed in 2014 at age 27 from colic brought on by strangulating lipomas.

In his last 18 months, I was pretty sure he was developing Cushings. He passed before I got the chance to have him tested.



So you think the 'said' cookie would destabilize Joker but not permanently. How long?It took me three years to get Joker into solid remission. I actually think it may have been a little sooner, maybe somewhere in the 2-1/2 year range.

If Joker went over the edge again, with IR, he would founder without question. His hooves are compromised enough that their ability to recover would be the big issue and involve months of recovery.

Something like your suggesting would be a big spike, similar to me eating a large bag of Hersheyís Kisses all at once. I would hope I could get that under control in a week or two.

Itís the founder that would come with that spike that I donít know how to answer.

That would likely involve me having to get all new tires on my stock trailer, start hauling Joker to the lameness vet every five weeks, AND pay my therapeutic farrier to come along so the lameness vet could instruct her according to what the x-rays would show


Iím making the cross sign at this ^^^^^ question & answer, lollol

I know you don't know and can't defend an answer but I'm only interested in what is your 'feel' based on the time your experience with him.


Another thing I'll throw out for you and others that seems strange is that since his major setback the first of last March, (which happened under suspicious circumstances), his periople has been moving down his hoofwall. It is now about 1 1/4" wide reflecting the growth in the last 5 months.


Not sure I'm using periople correctly. I'm referring to the band below the hairline that is usually about 1/2" wide and flaky but smooths off lower down. The flaky band is now about 1 1/4" wide.

I canít answer that either, so Iím also waiting for some thoughts.

Does that relate to anything anyone has ever heard of?
If you lived in a continuously wet area, I would think it was an excess moisture thing but you live in the desert.

A Good Horseman Doesn't Have To Tell Anyone; The Horse Already Knows.

I CAN'T ride 'em n slide 'em. I HAVE to lead 'em n feed 'em Thnx cowchick77.
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post #9 of 13 Old 08-05-2020, 11:13 PM Thread Starter
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2 1/2 years huh? We're at 1 yr 11 mo.


Thanks for the details.

What would Xenophon say?
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post #10 of 13 Old 08-05-2020, 11:48 PM
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My mare's periople is well down on her hooves right now too. Maybe 1/3 the way or maybe even more. It's very dry here (hardly any monsoon season) and her hooves are hard and strong, so I think it's just that the periople hasn't been shed or worn off yet. I always assumed it was pretty normal for it to grow down with the hoof wall and then it will either rub off on something as they walk or eventually flake off. I have seen show-horse owners sand it off so they could polish the hooves and get a nice smooth finish for shows, so I don't think it's unusual for it to grow down.


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