Laminitis Recovery Timetable - Page 7 - The Horse Forum
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post #61 of 138 Old 09-18-2018, 04:28 PM
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I agree with @knightrider and wanted to add that it would be a shame t have your knowledge disappear

Might you consider writing an equine book about Hondo and your many inventions? I would buy it
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post #62 of 138 Old 09-18-2018, 04:42 PM Thread Starter
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@AnitaAnne Thank you!! That brought a big smile to my face. It's still there.

If I write a book, which is way way unlikely, I will send you an autographed copy, postage paid.
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post #63 of 138 Old 09-18-2018, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by hondo View Post
@anitaanne thank you!! That brought a big smile to my face. It's still there.

If i write a book, which is way way unlikely, i will send you an autographed copy, postage paid.

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post #64 of 138 Old 09-18-2018, 07:52 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by AnitaAnne View Post
I would be remiss if I did not add that most of what I supposedly know about laminitis I've learned in the last two weeks from others that have already written books, articles, and considerable research, and also from people like you that have responded online.

Talking about it and posting the information I've come across helps to fix things in my mind somewhat.

While I'm here, I'll add that the Renegades are not a good idea for 24 hours too many times bare. He developed some fair sores on the bulbs. Not real bad, but enough.

i'll use the socks on him that I was using to keep the sand out next time I put them on. Maybe with some nylon on the outside of cotton socks to give two surfaces to rub against and not his bulbs.

The rubber cushion is constant pressure with no air circulation. Be nice if there was some Supracor thin enough for that. Maybe @SueC was right. I should knit him something.

But at the moment he is ambling around looking pretty natural.
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post #65 of 138 Old 09-18-2018, 08:30 PM
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-----

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Originally Posted by Hondo View Post
This is confusing. Both Hondo's fores and hinds were cooler than they have ever been since the onset. But just now in reading why inflamed areas increase in temperature, the bodies response is to open vessels to allow more blood to that area for healing and that is what causes the increase in temperature.

Hondo has been off the NSAID and the other ingredient that is supposed to increase blood flow. So is his feet cooler because of that, or because his body is relaxing the red alert?what have you been giving for blood flow?

You can make yourself crazy worrying too much about cooler hooves then warmer then cooler, and so forth. I can bring Joker out of his stall, stand him in the aisle, and his hooves feel cool at first. By the time I am done cleaning him and putting his boots on his hooves have warmed up some, even though we both have two barrel fans aimed at us. Joker is a quiet laid back fella who does not outwardly appear anxious. I suspect inwardly he does get anxious to get his morning started, as the other horse has already been turned out and he wants to go -- thus more blood circulating and warmer feet than when he was at rest.

Also, FWIW, Joker will get cold hooves during what Middle Tennessee calls winter. The lameness vet said that is a circulation issue and I can quilt/standing wrap his legs for turnout if I want - or not. He said if the hooves stay cold for too many days, then it's time for him (the vet) to get involved.

Also don't forget, Hondo is probably getting a good start on his winter coat as my horses are. His internal temperature is going to fluctuate with the day. If you were logging hoof temps when you used the temperature gun (I have one of those too), start logging them again as you may notice a +/- fluctuation that turns out to be normal for Hondo, this time of year.


One bulb on each of the fores was not looking that great so all his boots were pulled. He seems to be moving around comfortably. So the question is: Should I give him more stuff to increase the circulation and temperature, or just wait? yeah, I was afraid that might happen. Buy some Dr. Scholls moleskins and cut them them to fit the area of the boots that rub the heel. You will have to change the moleskins every day, so buy the biggest "sheets" you can find.

If the area is rubbed raw, mix equal parts of Triple Antibiotic ointment and hemorrhoid ointment and slather on the sore area during the time the boots are off..


If he has in fact rotated enough to diminish blood flow, then I might want to keep trying to increase it. But if he starts getting tender with his boots off it might not be noticeable with the pain relief of the NSAID. "if it works, don't fix it. This may be an area where you're doing overkill, regarding increasing blood flow. Let Hondo's body do its own job and see what happens.

Watch the NSAIDs --- when given over long periods, they will ultimately cause gastric stomach ulcers, then you will have one more thing to fix and quality ulcer meds that really work are not cheap.


X-rays would be somewhat of a guide, but I don't have them yet.

Add to this confusion all the disagreements at the forefront of research and it becomes troublesome indeed for deciding what to do, or not

yes. Any of us that have lived thru and treated founder, know this:(. And that is why you also see some conflicting information from us. There is no such thing as a clear black and white approach when it comes to metabolic horse issues, which most founder & laminitis cases are.

While the general outline of care applies to all horses, the detailed treatment can end up all over the place.

It's that word metabolism -- every horse is different. Keep reading and taking in RECENT information. Medical criteria has changed just since Joker foundered in 2012. You know Hondo best so take everything in and do what you think will work for his living environment, his metabolism, and his ability to deal with pain; the less NSAIDS he takes the better.

Even though I don't like the clogs, if they are working for Hondo then that is what's important. You may discover other "outside the box" things that will help him but wouldn't work on the next twenty horses.

I'm feeding chopped watermelon and rinds every day as part of both horses supplements. People think I'm nuts. The lameness vet was the one who suggested it. There are credible human studies regarding the citrulline in watermelon and rinds helping to control the insulin in human diabetics. I once found one equine study but I can't find it again.

During these 90+ degree days with our high humidity, each horse gets one measuring cup twice daily. Watermelon is 92% water, so also helps cool them down and provides more water in their systems.

It's really hard not to over think things -- I'm preaching it but I sometimes have trouble practicing what I preach, lollol

It also pays to frequently take clear pictures of the whole horse and of the hooves. Look at them, set them aside for several days, then go back and look at them again to see what they tell you, that you didn't notice the first time. Sometimes our eyes lie to us:).
.

There are people on the Net who vehemently disagree with how I have managed Joker but, getting back to pictures, they don't lie.

This was taken three months ago, just before Joker's 23rd birthday. He's a happy fella, standing in front of his barrel fan right after a bath:). I am sorry to everyone who has seen this picture on several threads, lollol. It's a favorite of mine, especially given the health issues this horse has fought thru.


image.jpg

A Good Horseman Doesn't Have To Tell Anyone; The Horse Already Knows.

I CAN'T ride 'em n slide 'em. I HAVE to lead 'em n feed 'em Thnx cowchick77.
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post #66 of 138 Old 09-18-2018, 11:31 PM Thread Starter
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Before wrapping up for the night, Hondo was haltered and led around the pen a bit including 180's. He has been out of his boots all day. His movement had become a little stilted.

The decision was to put socks on and then boots. Hey, people wear socks to keep the boots from rubbing, why not horses?

When the good foot was picked up there was not even enough time to get the sock fully on before Hondo said, "Help! I think I'm going down!"

Picked up his good foot and took all the time needed. No problem.

So the bad foot was booted first. Then when the good foot was picked up, he just stood there. Nothing.

So it is that I'm sold on the clog/boot.

Hopefully his bulbs won't be any worse tomorrow. With a trip into town on the agenda tomorrow, some more large large large socks will be picked up. His bulb captivators will be loosened up a bit also. The front captivator straps are not even being used.

Hondo was led around a second time including 180's with the boots and he was so much better. Probably not quite as good as he has been, so there may have been some loss today going without.

Scary to think what he would have been like without his clogs and going just barefoot all the time.

Temperature: Rimmey is always nearby and his temps are always checked at the same time for comparison using infrared. Feeling of them doesn't tell me much. They feel hot on a cool day and cool on a hot day.

It has not been a straight curve, but over all his temps have decreased more or less on an average of 1 degree F per day. I do not keep accurate records. My secretarial skill ain't.
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post #67 of 138 Old 09-19-2018, 12:23 AM
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Sorry to hear about your horse! Glad to hear you have a handle on rehabbing him back! I went through this a while ago with my own horse, who is completely recovered now :) As far as recovery time is concerned, it varies with the individual horse, their environment and hoof conformation. I see you already have lots of great information from the other forum members, so I'll try and give some that I haven't seen yet.

- Nutrition was definitely key for my horse's recovery. I personally found that a well balanced vitamin/mineral supplement with protein worked better for hoof recovery and weight loss than a low starch feed. Previously, she was on a low starch feed with no soy and no iron, but it didn't seem to be doing anything for her to lose weight. There are certain things I look for in the feed that aim for better hoof growth:

- Little or no Iron. Excess iron has been associated with insulin resistance and also blocks zinc. Iron is often high in many areas (check soil analysis' in your area), which can cause iron to be high in hay, grass and water as well. Even those red mineral blocks have iron in them and I've found that many horse feeds and supplements often have lots of Iron, at least where I've looked. There are also water filters available that will filter out iron.

- 50mg or more of Copper and 200mg or more of Zinc. Iron, Copper and Zinc interact with each other, so it is important that they are balanced. Imbalances in one or more of these mineral can block one of the others from being absorbed because they compete for similar transport mechanisms. The approximate ratio of which they should be is 4 Iron: 1 Copper: 4 Zinc. Copper is involved in the connective tissues of the body and influences the strength and rigidity of the hoof wall by enabling important enzymatic functions that support sulfur cross-linking between keratin molecules, which make up the hoof wall. Zinc is a component of enzymes necessary for the synthesis of keratins, keratin-associated proteins, cell envelope proteins, collagen and lipoproteins that all contribute to hoof strength and function. A shortage of zinc can also impair cellular division and growth and repair of connective tissue. Together, these minerals may help speed up hoof growth and improve hoof quality.

- Calcium higher than Phosphorus. Calcium is similar to copper in that it also helps link keratin molecules together, as well as bone strength. Absorbency is reduced when Phosphorus is higher.

-Protein and essential amino acids. Some essential amino acids that are found in the hoof include the sulfur-containing amino acids methionine and cysteine, which are required for keratin synthesis. Methionine is often deficient in grains. Methionine, proline, glycine and glutamine are also some of the aa's that are major protein building blocks of healthy connective tissue (hooves are primarily composed of connective tissue). The amino acid tyrosine and the mineral iodine are components of thyroid hormone. A deficiency of either of these nutrients can lead to low thyroid function, obesity, and poor hair coat and hoof quality. The relationship between tyrosine, iodine, hoof problems and obesity is very strong.

- Vitamin C, A and E. Vitamin C helps catalyze the formation of a strong and healthy horn. Vit A excess or deficiency of vitamin A can result in poor hoof quality. Vitamin E is often lacking in many areas. Usually horses get it from pasture. Vit. E is essential and is an antioxidant that is very important in muscle structure, which is directly related to hoof movement. Selenium is associated with Vit. E and is involved in Vit E absorbancy. A lack of selenium in the diet causes dry, cracking and/or thin hoof walls, which become crumbly. However, Selenium is toxic at high levels! It is best to check the selenium levels in each supplement and in feed to make sure your horse isn't getting too much. A safe amount is 2-5 mg per day, but the maximum tolerable amount per day is 20mg for most larger horses.

I see you have also been suggested Remission. I'm also using that supplement. It seems to work well. The Chromium and Magnesium are supposed to help with metabolism. Another supplement that may be a good idea to try is Ceylon cinnamon. Extract would be best since that is what has been used in studies. I've looked into a couple of other herbal remedies, but unfortunately there is either very little research out there or what there is doesn't show any or much improvement after testing.

I'd also suggest keeping a jar of magic cushion nearby in case your horse might have another episode some time in the future. I found that it helped keep the hoof cool for a longer time period after icing. Venice turpentine and durasole are also useful. Durasole helps harden the sole a little and venice turpentine helps put a little space between the sole and the ground. A sugar/Iodine soak was also suggested by my vet at the time to harden the sole.
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post #68 of 138 Old 09-19-2018, 08:15 AM Thread Starter
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@Jolly101

Lots of information here. Thanks. I'll be rereading it after my return from town.

Just to mention, Hondo's pasture was tested for trace minerals early on. The calculations done agreed very closely with the trace minerals found in Arizona Copper Complete which is based on hay samples over the entire state of Arizona. Iron is approximately 10x what is needed per NRC so huge amounts of copper and zinc are required to offset it.

The problem has been that there has been no method or mixture to get Hondo to eat it. The most important trace minerals were purchased in bulk from California Trace with similar results.

Good news is that Purina's Safe Choice has turned out to provide a mix where Hondo eats the Arizona Copper Complete. Effects will be way down the road but good results are anticipated.

So as not to overdo any of the trace minerals, feeding of Remission has been halted.

Hondo has white salt blocks and also pure granulated salt only. Iron is so bad here that if there was a way, I'd have him bled every so often to reduce the iron in his system. Humans that donate blood are known for fewer illnesses and a lower iron content. It's bad for us too.

The one thing I'll be reading more on is the protein needs of the foot and the horse in general. I do not recall having read anything about that.

I'm pondering on the Magic Cushion. I'll now be using up the Vettec EquipakCS that is on hand with plans on ordering more. It stays in for long periods, days and weeks, and fights thrush. It sounds/reads as if Magic Cushion is a one day application?

Here's the ingredients in Arizona Copper Complete. It does contain the amino acids methionine and threonine.



EACH 140 GRAM SERVING WILL PROVIDE
COBALT
2.0 mg
COPPER
260 mg
ZINC
720 mg
MANGANESE
200 mg
MAGNESIUM
5.0 grams
SELENIUM
2.0 mg
VITAMIN E
4,000 IU
IODINE
4.0 mg
VITAMIN A
15,000 IU
BIOTIN
20 mg
CHROMIUM
4.0 mg
LYSINE
10 grams
METHIONINE
3.0 grams
THREONINE
2.0 grams
B-COMPLEX VITAMINS EQUIVALENT TO ONE OUNCE SERVING OF HORSETECH'S B-PLEX SUPPLEMENT.

INGREDIENTS
Milled Flax, L-Lysine HCL, Magnesium Oxide, Zinc Amino Acid Complex, Calcium Iodate, Yeast Culture, Chromium Picolinate, Vitamin E, Selenium Yeast, DL-Methionine, Copper Amino Acid Complex, Manganese Amino Acid Complex, Vitamin A Supplement, Biotin, Cobalt Carbonate, Thiamine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Folic Acid, Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin B12, Niacinamide

FEEDING DIRECTIONS
Provide to horses at the rate of 140 grams (5 oz.) per day to provide nutrients as specified by client.
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post #69 of 138 Old 09-20-2018, 10:55 PM
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Happy to help :) Arizona Copper Complete looks like a good supplement! Lysine, Methionine and Threonine are the main amino acids that aren't normally abundant in hay. It's good to have enough protein with little carbs because muscle increases Magnesium uptake, uses insulin and helps lower blood glucose, all of which are what you want for a previously laminitic horse :)

I had the same problem getting my horse to eat the vit/min pellets. Miss piggy decided she was going to protest for better food, because CLEARLY I was feeding her cardboard XD I ended up trying peppermint tea to pour over her feed and she quite likes that so far! Glad you found something that your horse will eat it with.

Since you have high Iron in your location, you may be interested in something similar to this: Camco Tastepure RV Standard Water Filter, White | Canadian Tire

My farrier has had a couple of clients with IR and apparently they have had success with using the water filter to reduce the iron intake. I haven't yet used it myself, but am looking into it for the future with another boarder :)

As for the magic cushion, yes it does seem to be a once a day ind of thing. It's mainly to cool the hoof. I've never heard of Vettec EquipakCS, but it seems like an interesting product and is definitely convenient to have it stay on for longer a duration.
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post #70 of 138 Old 09-21-2018, 09:52 AM Thread Starter
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The 10x iron content mentioned was in the forage tested from Hondo's pasture which turns out to be about the same as the average hay found in Arizona. Iron in the water does not seem high. The water is generally hard in Arizona (high mineral content) but no red deposits. I also read somewhere (on the net) that the chemical form of iron in water was not metabolized as the iron found in plants. Take that with a grain of salt until verified as I have no recollection where I read it.

The mixer being used is Purina SafeChoice Special Care. At present 8 cups are mixed to one cup of Arizona Copper Complete and will hopefully be able to be reduced even more. At some point some calculations will need to be done to be sure none of the minerals are being over done. The amounts are small in SafeChoice so hopefully there won't be a problem. Guaranteed analysis below.

His heel bulbs were not up to having the Viper boots left on last night. The heel portion was too tight. They were loosened but not soon enough. Today the clog adaptations will be transferred to some oversized easycare gloves which should allow his bulbs to recover. But push come to shove, better for his bulbs to be temporarily damaged rather than his coffin bone permanently.

Confession time. I've been negligent about weighing his feed on the assumption my eye had been properly calibrated. Well, the calibration gradually went off over time and needed adjustment. There is now a 25 gallon container permanently hanging in the haybarn attached to a scale. He's been being fed way way over 2%.

This sentence caught my eye in one article: "Low blood glucose causes horses to eat more and faster. In ponies, blood glucose influences the interval between feeding but not the amount. Adding oil to the feed produces low, steady blood glucose levels, extends the interval between feeding and reduces total intake for three to 18 hours after consumption." Hoofbeats Magazine - What Controls Appetite in the Horse?

Further reading on other sites produced confusing and confounding information about controlling hunger with oil.

This ordeal is becoming another huge rabbit hole to wonder around in.

SafeChoice Special Care guaranteed analysis:

Nutrient Level
Crude Protein, minimum 14.0%
Lysine, minimum 0.80%
Methionine, minimum 0.30%
Threonine, minimum 0.50%
Crude Fat, minimum 7.0%
Crude Fiber, maximum 15.0%
ADF, maximum 19.0%
NDF, maximum 39.0%
Dietary Starch*, maximum 11.0%
Sugar*, maximum 4.0%
Calcium, minimum 0.90%
Calcium, maximum 1.20%
Phosphorus, minimum 0.70%
Copper, minimum 50 ppm
Zinc, minimum 160 ppm
Selenium, minimum 0.60 ppm
Vitamin A, minimum 3,000 IU/lb
Vitamin D, minimum 350 IU/lb
Vitamin E, minimum 100 IU/lb
Biotin, minimum 0.45 mg/lb
Lactobacillus acidophilus, minimum 5.1 MIL CFU/LB
Lactobacillus casei, minimum 5.1 MIL CFU/LB
Bifidobacterium thermophilum, minimum 5.1 MIL CFU/LB
Enterococcus Faecium, minimum 5.1 MIL CFU/LB
*NSC (Non-structural Carbohydrates) = Dietary Starch + Sugar
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