Let's talk about hard keepers - Page 3 - The Horse Forum
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post #21 of 31 Old 03-12-2017, 03:40 PM
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Alfalfa cubes soaked & senior feed is what I would do, gradually then build up to the amount for the weight you want. This little video helped me understand how to better feed my girl.
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post #22 of 31 Old 03-12-2017, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by WhattaTroublemaker View Post
Thank you jaydee! She's been on a working schedule since we bought her, which covered bots and tapeworms as well, (once a year for them) we also rotate wormers. She had a complete go over by the vet a few months ago (still piled high with bills ) and was cleared from nose to tail. She also gets blanketed on cold days + overnight when the temperature drops. I can look into sugar beet. It sucks because our feed store has very limited choice of feeds, but they have started carrying blue seal!
You say that you use a wormer that covers tapeworm and bots but are you using one that has Moxidectin as the active ingredient to deal with encysted strongyles? They are the parasites (or stage of that parasite) most likely to cause serious problems with weight and can even result in death
They won't show up on a fecal egg count and can stay encysted for as long as 2 years all the time causing damage
I have had horses that do get 'hot' when fed too much grain or alfalfa and I've had horses that you could feed pretty much anything and it makes no difference. Too much grain can cause digestive disturbances - one of the things that can lead to hind gut ulcers - and its easy to confuse a horse that's agitated because its uncomfortable with one that seems 'hyper' because its got too much energy.
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post #23 of 31 Old 03-13-2017, 12:07 AM
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I read most but not all of the responses to your thread....
So you are still having difficulty getting weight and the "bloom" of health on your horse...
I have had much of the same issue.
I recently started my hard-keeper on Pennwoods Body Builder 40000.....
https://pennwoods.com/body-builder-4000
In honesty he had been on this a few days {5 days} at 1 scoop {4 ounces} a day and I was seeing a improvement in his looks of "thinness" and his coat.
At 15 days he had a padding of fat where I had been trying for months to pad him and failed...
It is recommended to feed 4 - 6 ounces a day to start, and I went with the lower amount suggested so can only guess at how much better he would appear if I had fed the larger amount right away.
I had no adverse effects of runny stool or diarrhea either with such a fat content concentration.

Amazon has a great price for a 25 pound pail with free shipping {USA} for $71.99.
I bought a 11 pound bucket from Stateline Tack with shipping on sale for $38.00+.....

This is a high fat supplement {40%} and protein at 26%.....
My horse loves it and licks his feed bucket clean of every morsel..he can't wait for me to give it to him he yells in anticipation seeing me coming with it!
It is a yellowish colored coarse granular product...pleasant smell to it.

I know you have tried so many things and so much has been suggested...
Might I suggest you at least look into this product.

Best of luck with the horse...
....

The worst day is instantly better when shared with my horse.....
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post #24 of 31 Old 03-13-2017, 01:59 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaydee View Post
You say that you use a wormer that covers tapeworm and bots but are you using one that has Moxidectin as the active ingredient to deal with encysted strongyles? They are the parasites (or stage of that parasite) most likely to cause serious problems with weight and can even result in death
They won't show up on a fecal egg count and can stay encysted for as long as 2 years all the time causing damage
I have had horses that do get 'hot' when fed too much grain or alfalfa and I've had horses that you could feed pretty much anything and it makes no difference. Too much grain can cause digestive disturbances - one of the things that can lead to hind gut ulcers - and its easy to confuse a horse that's agitated because its uncomfortable with one that seems 'hyper' because its got too much energy.
We rotate between an ivermectin wormer and moxidectin throughout the year, so no worries there.

As for hind gut ulcers, I know there's no way to scope for them so it's possible, but the vet said it's highly unlikely. But then again, she said there were no lumps on her spine when there obviously are (>.<) so it is possible.
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post #25 of 31 Old 03-13-2017, 02:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Lylly View Post
No one mentioned soaked alfalfa cubes, I'm planning to feed a thin mare (15 years old) morning & night soaked cubes. Any one use them ? or have any feed back about them ? I live in Northern BC and a few told me that's what they do with older horses. PS my mare looks similar to yours.
They are a good option but I find beet pulp better for weight building.

When we had an old gelding with no teeth he only got a handful of hay and a "mush" which had a good bit of alfalfa pellets in it. Good stuff, but not my go to for this situation (though I wouldn't disregard it either). FWIW I prefer pellets to cubes.

From what I know about the mare I would consider stomach issues as well.

I think a senior feed is a good choice to try her on. Then you don't have to deal with soaking the BP either lol.

As far as what to look for just good quality and high fat. Check that it's not something that will make her hot, but the better quality senior feeds should not (cheaper ones are basically sweet feed sometimes). Sounds like she keeps weight easily enough, just needs more than straight hay.
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Last edited by Yogiwick; 03-13-2017 at 02:52 AM.
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post #26 of 31 Old 03-13-2017, 04:51 AM
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I don't think you always have to worry about ulcers in the hind gut, instead wonder if the hind gut is acidic enough that the wrong bacteria is in there. As @horseluvr2524 said, I think I have solved my issue with my mare after years of pouring hard feed into her.

What I've been learning is that there is a different kind of bacteria needed to digest grain (oats) and to ferment hay. In an acidic environment, the acidic type bacteria thrive. Which means your oats get digested, and if you're lucky, the acid won't cause any openings in the lining of the intestine causing colic or laminitis. But it also means you don't have the right kind of bacteria to digest and ferment the hay. So a lot of the hay just mainly passes through. My mare seemed to give up on eating much hay, she'd often only eat 8 lbs a day, which made me desperate and I fed her pounds of senior feed, various hard feeds and finally oats.

Supposedly 4 lbs of oats may not cause problems. However, it might have turned the bacteria tide in the gut over to letting the more acidic types thrive. And bacteria and yeast in our body have these territorial type relationships. Different types battle against each other and take over space, and when one takes over due to the right environment, that kind tends to thrive and rule until something changes the balance again. A problem is also that some of the bacteria that live in acidic environments actually produce acid and make the environment more acidic. This is a problem in humans too, and sometimes (this is really disgusting), they have to empty a human's intestines and refill them with the content of a healthy person's intestines to get healthy again.

OK, did I have to go there? Anyway, what has helped my mare is giving a hind gut buffer (timed release sodium bicarbonate) called Equishure, but also I've been giving probiotics daily to help the non-acid bacteria take over again. It seems to be working for my mare.
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post #27 of 31 Old 03-13-2017, 04:45 PM
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Digestibility is what you need to look at also, pellets can be 45% digestible compared to soaked cubes @ 75% digestible there are cubes that are harder to digest also even soaked (containing Bentonite or some kind of glue) You want something that is easy to break apart with no Bentonite. just using a *more digestible* feed of any kind will give you the best bang for your buck. Beet pulp is awesome if your horse will eat it lol I have tried beet pulp before on another horse, he ate it for about three days then nope lol I put apples, carrots (witch he loves) and still nope lol the one I picked up (bag of alfalfa cubes) is processed in Alberta Its easy to break apart with my hands and soaks up nice with no chunks

Last edited by Lylly; 03-13-2017 at 04:59 PM.
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post #28 of 31 Old 03-22-2017, 11:57 PM
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Beet pulp is an acquired taste for most horses, but once they get a taste for it, have never had a horse that did not like it
Oats, while they contain a starch that is easily broken down into simple sugars, still have the risk of feeding any significant amount of grain-and that it passes through the digestive system quickly, so a good chance un digested starch enters the Caecum, and that is the cause of the problem-where that digestion occurs
This is another reason soaked beet pulp is the better choice,> It has an energy level between that of forage and grain, but is digested as a forage, so does not have the associated risk, like grain, directly in proportion to amount fed

'Laminitis and colic are often the result of undigested starch entering the caecum of the horse where it is broken down and fermented by microbes. It is this fermentation process along with alterations in the gut flora that produces the toxins that enter the bloodstream and damage the sensitive blood vessels within the hoof.'
While it is true that when you change feed, time is needed for the microbes to adjust, but that is a separate issue form the fact that grain can easily cause un digested starch to enter the hindgut
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post #29 of 31 Old 03-28-2017, 03:17 PM
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I had fantastic luck with using Essential K with my hard-ish keeper TB this was in addition to mostly free choice grass hay, some alfalfa, and senior feed. Once we started the Essential K I noticed a difference in about 2 weeks in his overall body condition as well as his coat condition.

of all the things my hands have held the best by far is you.

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post #30 of 31 Old 04-18-2017, 09:40 PM
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I am feeding my ottb gelding Milk Plus Pellets. very similar to Calf Manna. has put weight and muscle on my ottb in just over a month. it is also a vita/mineral supplement as well with 28% protein per serving. you feed 1-4 cups each feeding depending on how much weight/conditioning is needed... Im in Oregon and Milk Plus Pellets comes in a 50lb bag and is 18.99 at Costal Farm and Ranch. Calf Manna costs a little more closer to 32.99 50lb bag.
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