Put more "spice" in a sleepy OTTB - The Horse Forum
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post #1 of 31 Old 11-19-2018, 06:43 PM Thread Starter
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Put more "spice" in a sleepy OTTB

My horse isn't hot. She's extremely mellow, quiet, and thoughtful.



My vet called me back. I gave her some of the symptoms we've been having with regards to the tying up. We re-checked her blood results and she confirmed RER. We also saw her selenium levels were incredibly low. I've got her on a supplement now and the vet wants to return to take blood samples to check her current levels, in order to see if we need extra supplementation or not.


So that's next on the list of things to do.


I've sent her hair off to Equiseq for the DNA test to see if she has any other mypoathies, as PSSM2 is a huge suspicion at the moment.



Our treatment consists of controlled exercise and to keep her environment and lifestyle as stress-free, anxiety-free, and relaxing as possible. We had one set back this weekend but the next day she was all better. She needs to be blanketed very heavily. She's on additional mag and has been great.



Except...



She's too slow.


Feedxl has us in the green for her entire diet (I have the PDF if anyone wants to see what i've got her on). the PSSM forum on FB has been super helpful and supportive. Right now she is on 15lbs grass hay, 5lbs alfalfa hay split into 2 meals in an extremely small nibble net. This lasts her all day. Her supplements consist of 4oz california trace, 1 oz tri-amino, 1 folic acid pill, 3 lbs rice bran, and 1 lb equine senior. She was on triple crown senior and did phenomenal on that. However, again, while everything is in the green she is very sleepy under saddle and generally too calm for comfort.


I need her to be a bit more "up" but she is not allowed to have hard grain like oats. The Purina senior, even at 1 lb, is pushing the boundaries a little bit as far as her NSC's go. When she is on a high fat, low sugar diet she is incredibly mellow. It is only frustrating because I need more energy during my dressage rides.



Dare I say it, I need her "hotter!"


Is there a supplement/feed addition I can give Ty so that she has a bit more zap and spark? She is incredibly sugar sensitive. Last time I put her on 6 lbs of strategy she lost. her. MIND. so I am conscious of that.


1 lb of eq senior might be enough, but I'm hoping to find a feed that won't upset her disorder but also gives her that performance boost. The issue is any feed that could make her TOO "up" could set off an episode, so we have to be very careful.


Thanks all for the help.
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post #2 of 31 Old 11-19-2018, 07:40 PM
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Coal...
You're not going to like this but...

You need to get your priorities straight...
You have a sick horse who needs fixing first before you work her, show her, work her some more and push, push, push or you might not have any horse left to ride.
You've put numerous threads and hundreds of posts here about the same issues and a few with the same diagnosis and had the same information given by knowledgeable posters in response...
Slow down, put the horse first and get her well...
She can't be what you want when sick...
Till you respect your horse and the fact she is seriously ill and your continued pushing her is harming her possibly permanently...

Maybe you should consider getting another horse to take you on the journey you are heart set to accomplish cause this horse isn't going to get you there no matter what you think when you come back here every few weeks with a new ailment...
Your horse is unsound and unhealthy from all of what you have written of in the past...never a healthy resolution found that you mention...
Just another or a ongoing problem back again...
https://www.horseforum.com/horse-hea...advice-796873/
So many back threads and posts of you making comments on unsoundness issues, colics and ongoing, ongoing and more ongoing tests...You have pages of comments all with a negative issue happening...
Then you get "the diagnosis" and not stop to work for a resolution. I just not understand why you push your horse so... she's sick!
Have you seen this...https://aaep.org/horsehealth/equine-...rhabdomyolysis
The biggest thing that keeps jumping off the page when I read it is the horse does not need excitement, does not need spark or "spice" as you call it...you bring those to the horse and you bring on a onset of dangerous symptoms...
You need to make some serious decisions and choices Coal...you really do.
Tyra if this is really what she has...she isn't going to be able to do what you want is where this goes...she just can't.
Not unless you take a break and get her ailment under control and manage it and manage you....

You want something so badly...I get that...
Push you, but get another horse who is healthy and able to take you where you want to go cause I don't see Tyra making the journey much further as she is with you, she can't..
She's sick....
I'm sorry.
...

The worst day is instantly better when shared with my horse.....
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post #3 of 31 Old 11-19-2018, 07:50 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by horselovinguy View Post
Coal...
You're not going to like this but...

You need to get your priorities straight...
You have a sick horse who needs fixing first before you work her, show her, work her some more and push, push, push or you might not have any horse left to ride.
You've put numerous threads and hundreds of posts here about the same issues and a few with the same diagnosis and had the same information given by knowledgeable posters in response...
Slow down, put the horse first and get her well...
She can't be what you want when sick...
Till you respect your horse and the fact she is seriously ill and your continued pushing her is harming her possibly permanently...

Maybe you should consider getting another horse to take you on the journey you are heart set to accomplish cause this horse isn't going to get you there no matter what you think when you come back here every few weeks with a new ailment...
Your horse is unsound and unhealthy from all of what you have written of in the past...never a healthy resolution found that you mention...
Just another or a ongoing problem back again...
https://www.horseforum.com/horse-hea...advice-796873/
So many back threads and posts of you making comments on unsoundness issues, colics and ongoing, ongoing and more ongoing tests...You have pages of comments all with a negative issue happening...
Then you get "the diagnosis" and not stop to work for a resolution. I just not understand why you push your horse so... she's sick!
Have you seen this...https://aaep.org/horsehealth/equine-...rhabdomyolysis
The biggest thing that keeps jumping off the page when I read it is the horse does not need excitement, does not need spark or "spice" as you call it...you bring those to the horse and you bring on a onset of dangerous symptoms...
You need to make some serious decisions and choices Coal...you really do.
Tyra if this is really what she has...she isn't going to be able to do what you want is where this goes...she just can't.
Not unless you take a break and get her ailment under control and manage it and manage you....

You want something so badly...I get that...
Push you, but get another horse who is healthy and able to take you where you want to go cause I don't see Tyra making the journey much further as she is with you, she can't..
She's sick....
I'm sorry.
...

I respect your opinion HLG but I disagree. if you want to talk more about my horse's ailments you can PM me. For now, I am listening to the advice of my vet who certainly does not have the doom-and-gloom outlook you have. I do not believe in trading in horses just because they have something that needs to be maintained.


I've done all the research, but there are always two sides to every story. And there are two sides to every outlook on a disorder. And this one does not seem to be a be-all-end-all career cancelling problem. It seems to be a "manage it with diet" especially since when we DID manage it, she got better.



So what does that say?



HLG, there aren't 5000 different issues with this horse - there is one. EVERYTHING can be linked back to the RER.


Stifle issues? RER
Colics? Tying up.
Lameness problems? RER
Random sweating? Tying up.


You take care of the tying up and everything falls into place.



I can live with her being pokey. I would prefer her to have a bit more energy.


I will tell you what the vet said: "make sure this horse is working. If you can't ride her for whatever reason on any day, make sure she is handwalked. No more turnout with other horses. Low sugar, high fat diet."
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post #4 of 31 Old 11-19-2018, 08:13 PM Thread Starter
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Why I am asking about a higher NSC diet: my constant research has led me to evidence, source being the facebook forum, that because she is not PSSM 1 she does not have the sugar storage myopathy issues and there is no evidence to suggest that an extremely low NSC diet helps horses with rhabdomyolisis. What seemed to really help her was more vitamin E and selenium. She was great for 3 weeks, and then I changed her to a supplement that is designed to help horses with these issues, but I did not give her the loading dose. The next day she crashed, went down in t/o and struggled to get up, which i knew was a tie up. When I took her off the supplements and put her back on her regular feed, the next day she was fine and I got to lunge her a bit.


I am torn between following the PSSM1 diet and not, specifically due to the lack of evidence that nsc's lower than 11% make a marked improvement.
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post #5 of 31 Old 11-19-2018, 08:14 PM
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Personally, if were my horse, I would put everything on hold for a while and let her adjust to the new lifestyle and diet. Spend some time riding just to ride and stay in shape and nothing else.

I get wanting to do things. I wanted to do things with my mare Laela until a pasture accident that put her out. Her hock was the size of a volley ball at least. Vet said that she would never be a riding horse again but we would try to get her pasture sound. When he said that, I put my fingers in my ears "La La La La, I don't hear you" . I spent 18 months taking care of her before I ever set my butt on her back. My choices were to get rid of her and get another horse to do what I wanted, ride her prematurely and take the chance or give her time to heal. I chose the latter and she is good as gold right now. I still don't work her too hard and changed my mind on what I wanted to do. I love this horse for what and who she is so that was the decision that I made. Once I made the decision, I was fine.

I guess what I am saying is that Tyra needs time for her body to heal. You are on the right track in finding out what is wrong with her and making the necessary changes, now you have to give it time. She may end up being what you want right now or she may not. You may care or you may not if she isn't. Your perspective may change or it may not. But, if you are planning to stick with her, you have to give her the time that she needs.

There will be only one of you for all time. Fearlessly be yourself.
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post #6 of 31 Old 11-19-2018, 08:17 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoriF View Post
Personally, if were my horse, I would put everything on hold for a while and let her adjust to the new lifestyle and diet. Spend some time riding just to ride and stay in shape and nothing else.

I get wanting to do things. I wanted to do things with my mare Laela until a pasture accident that put her out. Her hock was the size of a volley ball at least. Vet said that she would never be a riding horse again but we would try to get her pasture sound. When he said that, I put my fingers in my ears "La La La La, I don't hear you" . I spent 18 months taking care of her before I ever set my butt on her back. My choices were to get rid of her and get another horse to do what I wanted, ride her prematurely and take the chance or give her time to heal. I chose the latter and she is good as gold right now. I still don't work her too hard and changed my mind on what I wanted to do. I love this horse for what and who she is so that was the decision that I made. Once I made the decision, I was fine.

I guess what I am saying is that Tyra needs time for her body to heal. You are on the right track in finding out what is wrong with her and making the necessary changes, now you have to give it time. She may end up being what you want right now or she may not. You may care or you may not if she isn't. Your perspective may change or it may not. But, if you are planning to stick with her, you have to give her the time that she needs.

Thanks Lori, it is encouraging to know that there may have been one overarching connection to all of these small "NQR"s this entire time and we didn't see it. I never suspected PSSM, and neither did my vet, because she is a TB. We also never even considered RER because she is not naturally high strung. If the test comes back n/px or px/px, we will have the truth. She could also be p2, p3, p4, we just don't know but WILL know soon.


This disorder could explain all of the strangeness and why, test after test, the vets could never find anything physically wrong with her. It might also speculate why she was prematurely pulled from the track after having done very well for so long.


I'll admit i have many dreams but they are mostly "people pleasing" dreams. If it were up to me, in all honesty, i'd be working on our trail skills (of which we are seriously lacking yikes), but my current trainer says "omg she has FEI quality! she could be an FEI horse!!! She was so incredible when she was feeling bad and imagine how she'll MOVE when she's feeling better!" So there's some external pressure as well.



I have gotten over a lot of my "want to show need to show want to win" because in 2016 she was out of work for 8 months. At the time we thought SI but now that I KNOW about the RER, it easily could have been that. The time off really made me see that what I really love is taking care of her more than riding. I imagine my horse being 100% and I yawn, haha! being her caretaker and keeping up with her issues is what makes this entire journey so special. I have learned so, so much.

@horselovinguy , yes I actually have been considering another horse. The issue is board for both would set me back and I am a "forever owner" so i would only get a second if I knew I could afford both to the max. That means 2000 dollar hospital stays for both if it came to it. Tyra will always take priority, and right now the money I could be spending on a second horse is going towards getting her well. I've pulled her out of the training program and I am working her very, very lightly. At the moment there is no under saddle work, just lunging. I feel like we are taking small steps towards a healthier life.


I've never had a myopathy so I can't imagine what kind of pain this is...

Last edited by thecolorcoal; 11-19-2018 at 08:24 PM.
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post #7 of 31 Old 11-19-2018, 11:48 PM
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Hmmm

I kinda have to agree with HLG. Here's the thing: sick animals don't have energy. And when she's well (completely well) she'll let you know. One of horses I showed in HS I picked up just after he had bladder stone surgery, and for awhile we hand walked, nothing more. The day he was ready to go back into work was the same day he reared up in hand and tried to chase a barn cat (no, I do not recommend that you tolerate misbehaving), and he was otherwise a very mellow horse, he just hadn't felt "good" in a long time. If your horse had the symptoms of colic and they associated with the tyeing up, I would not be so quick to start trying to amp her up. To me, I'd be trying to feed her like a rescue, and reintroducing things with a No-Pressure attitude. Bigger horses (I've only dealt with tying up in QHs, never in Arabs, ponies or morgans) seem to get it more when they have to put strenuous work in/ get stressed, so the idea of adding amp to an already struggling horse doesn't make sense to me. If her symptoms of tyeing up are so dire that they land her at the horse ER with major colic, then with similar symptoms every day after, I don't think I could morally ride her.

You're doing piles for her as far as vet work and testing goes. At the moment if I had to put that much financial investment into my dude I'd be in the red, and he'd be sold- it just would cost more than I have. So to me it's super impressive that you've got that much commitment to her and the means to call the vet again and again.
But overall I really think she needs a break, time to recover, maybe a change of pace so that turnout with other horses could become relaxing. To me it's a huge red flag when the horse is so poorly adjusted/stressed that they can't enjoy the things that are natural to them. It would be like a taking a person who was terrified of other people and going "yeah that's fine, we don't need to address this, just make sure that they never make human contact ever and I'm sure they'll lead a healthy balanced life"

She sounds like the kind of horse that could do to get out of a training barn and into a more low key environment- maybe boarding with someone who is just a private horse owner and takes a boarder now and again to foot some costs. I mention this because it's what my pony needed, and it made a world of difference to get him to a quieter environment where he could just learn to be a horse. To me there's no such thing as a horse that is a bad canidate for turnout because that idea is very very counter their evolutionary nature. If her health is preventing her from enjoying normal horse life it needs to be addressed- but the aim should be to return her to a a state of being a happy, well adjusted equine citizen and not simply a horse that can exist and be ridden without injury.


"Stay ON the horse IN the arena" -my trainer.
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post #8 of 31 Old 11-20-2018, 12:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thecolorcoal View Post
My horse isn't hot. She's extremely mellow, quiet, and thoughtful.



My vet called me back. I gave her some of the symptoms we've been having with regards to the tying up. We re-checked her blood results and she confirmed RER. We also saw her selenium levels were incredibly low. I've got her on a supplement now and the vet wants to return to take blood samples to check her current levels, in order to see if we need extra supplementation or not.


So that's next on the list of things to do.


I've sent her hair off to Equiseq for the DNA test to see if she has any other mypoathies, as PSSM2 is a huge suspicion at the moment.



Our treatment consists of controlled exercise and to keep her environment and lifestyle as stress-free, anxiety-free, and relaxing as possible. We had one set back this weekend but the next day she was all better. She needs to be blanketed very heavily. She's on additional mag and has been great.



Except...



She's too slow.


Feedxl has us in the green for her entire diet (I have the PDF if anyone wants to see what i've got her on). the PSSM forum on FB has been super helpful and supportive. Right now she is on 15lbs grass hay, 5lbs alfalfa hay split into 2 meals in an extremely small nibble net. This lasts her all day. Her supplements consist of 4oz california trace, 1 oz tri-amino, 1 folic acid pill, 3 lbs rice bran, and 1 lb equine senior. She was on triple crown senior and did phenomenal on that. However, again, while everything is in the green she is very sleepy under saddle and generally too calm for comfort.


I need her to be a bit more "up" but she is not allowed to have hard grain like oats. The Purina senior, even at 1 lb, is pushing the boundaries a little bit as far as her NSC's go. When she is on a high fat, low sugar diet she is incredibly mellow. It is only frustrating because I need more energy during my dressage rides.



Dare I say it, I need her "hotter!"


Is there a supplement/feed addition I can give Ty so that she has a bit more zap and spark? She is incredibly sugar sensitive. Last time I put her on 6 lbs of strategy she lost. her. MIND. so I am conscious of that.


1 lb of eq senior might be enough, but I'm hoping to find a feed that won't upset her disorder but also gives her that performance boost. The issue is any feed that could make her TOO "up" could set off an episode, so we have to be very careful.


Thanks all for the help.
When I read posts from you about your horse it makes me very sad. Then I remember that I can't save every horse.

I just can't even bear reading these posts anymore from you anymore; It hurts my heart.

That poor Tyra
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post #9 of 31 Old 11-20-2018, 02:09 AM
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Tyra is telling you she needs time off you're not listening. Quit putting you're disires, above tyras needs which is much needed time off.

My own horse with issues not same as you're horse's issues. I rode him yesterday easy ride mostly walking did great seemed happy. Very forward pretty much himself. Took him out today and he was off not quite right.

Saddled him up put on his bridle got on. My very forward wants to step out. Was slow going not stepping out wanting to turn around to go home...very unlike him. Guess what I listened to him.

Took him home untacked him and put him back out in corral. He's obviously not feeling good so he's off till he feels good.

You need to do right by tyra put your wants aside till she's feeling better.
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post #10 of 31 Old 11-20-2018, 05:27 AM
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Honestly I avoid commenting on these types of threads because it falls on deaf ears. With that in mind I'll say the bare minimum.

I'll say this dressage is extremely demanding on the horse's musculature. It takes a really really special and talented horse to be able to do it, even if they DONT have any medical or soundness issues but I'll say a horse with muscular issues doesnt need to be pushed. You push them and youre risking another episode. Every person Ive known who has had a horse with muscular issues has backed off their ambitions for the horse, it is too taxing and not at all fair. Dressage is about as demanding on the muscular system as you can get. If you have a horse with muscular issues, it's not fair to put that kind of pressure on them or you'll have a sick horse. Much easier to maintain a stifle or hock issue than a muscular issue. You can't push a horse with muscular issues, you REALLY have to listen to them when their body is sore or they can't do something and back off. Even with magic supplements and the right diet, it is HARD to maintain a horse with muscular issues and it's not something you just give the right food or supplement and they're perfect. They have good days and bad days and their performance will never be what it would if their muscular system were healthy.

I had a horse with muscular issues I had to retire from dressage, I tried to push a little past but my final dressage lesson on him. I couldn't get him forward. He was usually a spicy hot horse and I remember walking to my trainer and saying I think it's time he finds a new career, this isn't fair to him. He's saying he cant do it and it's time I listen. I sold him to a woman who was looking for a half arabian hunter-jumper and he's doing great now. Fabulous hunter-jumper, even does well on the open circuit and has his home of a life time. She found her heart horse and Dante got to show (LOVES to show). He's much happier in his new home than he was with me. I know I did my best by him and honestly selling him was the best thing I could have done for him. He's happy, doesn't struggle to stay sound and gets to do what he loves with someone who loves him.

All lower levels tests greatly reward relaxation over intensity. A hot-tense horse is very hard to get good marks on at the lower levels. The judges are much happier seeing willingness, relaxation and good basics. Mellow, quiet and thoughtful is a GOOD thing, she doesn't need to be hot. If a horse isn't naturally hot, don't try to make them hot. Just focus on balance and getting her healthy. A muscular issue is a very serious thing and needs to be treated seriously and well managed.

Last edited by DanteDressageNerd; 11-20-2018 at 05:33 AM.
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