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Hunter/Jumper prospect critique. *VIDEO*

5K views 42 replies 17 participants last post by  MudPaint 
#1 ·
Jazz has been at the new trainer now for about a month and I can see a HUGE improvement. His stubborness is finally starting to subside
. Jazz is a 6 year old OTTB and has been in training for about a month now. I plan to use him in either the Hunters or the Jumpers, I am still waiting on him to decide where to show. Please critique him! This is the first time I have ever seen him do a grid, I know they have been working with him a lot and cannot wait until he is ready to show
.

Please do not critique the rider or comment on her not wearing a helmet, I already know
. Thanks.

YouTube - Jazz grid <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Dont forget this video!


Thank you.
 
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#5 ·
As for your question - jumping form itself is -very nice-. He seems eager to jump and happy too so and approaches it with gusto but not a blind rush. He seems to take care in lifting his feet. Most importantly, he appears to love it!! I think he will make an exellent jumper.

However, I think you need to discuss his training method with his trainer.

What he is currently being taught is that he has to stop at the fence after the jump. This is - very, very, very bad. Especially since its during his retraining and he's going to start to associate it with jumping. Once he has this down, it will become a problem for you (a horse trained to stop at a fence after a jump will be a disaster at shows) Jump jump happy joy, canter canter - preparing for turn to next jump. WAIT! Fence! Stop! (lol) Also, he will learn to go straight towards a fence after the jump.

Very nice horse. VERY GOOD jumping prospect. Very bad training method that can have terrible results, specifically in regards to the fence-riding in combination with a young OTTB.
 
#6 ·
P.s I myself ride an OTTB. He was trained to 'stop' at fences. I spent almost 2 months just getting him to well.. stop stopping at fences and realize we can actually go past it *g* Trust me, its really a nuisance!

Also, I don't mean to critique your trainers general handling of the horse, or her riding, simply the way this specifically is handled.
 
#7 ·
As far as I know, this technique is used
a. when your horse after jumping is turning left or right and not moving straighn forward and
b. when your horse after jumping starts to speed up, so you make him run down the line till the end of the arena and you don't let him turn to continue running.
 
#8 ·
Stopping the horse at the fence makes him stop. Considering he is a Thoroughbred right off the track maybe he takes off after the jump, I know a few OTTB's that do that and stopping them at the fence helps them learn they can't take off after a jump. (It's not like the rider was pulling on him or being really harsh trying to stop him)

He looks like is going to make a good jumper. He seems very willing. He has a pretty form and tucks up his knees nicely. Good luck with him.
 
#9 ·
Except you can clearly see him canter away from the fence in a very relaxed manner. The rider also has her leg on. If you're going to drive a horse into a fence to get him to stop from running away, you probably shouldn't keep your leg active against his barrel, encouraging him to lengthen his stride and speed up, then run him headfirst into a fence. And, if you have a horse who is going to bolt after a cross rail, you have a major hole in your training that needs to be fixed before you begin jumping. 9 times out of 10 a horse that will bolt after a fence will bolt when presented with the right variables on flat as well.

If you're not careful, as already mentioned, he will begin stopping immediately after fences.
 
#11 ·
Thank you to those who posted positive comments.

I am very confident in my trainer and his methods, as I have seen him start and finish green horses in H/J expecially OTTB. He is well known in my area and I would not have chosen him to work with my horse if I did not trust in his methods, trust me I did my research.

LIke I said this little guy is green so not everything he does is going to be "perfect" he is still in training.

As for the outdoor arena fence which I am assuming is what you are referring to when you say "stopping" at the fence. When you trot a crossrail you are always suppose to stop straight after it, at least thats what I was always taught when training a green horse. Turn around, repeat. There are many different exercising that we do with Jazz, and after seeing my trainers finished horses there is no doubt in my mind that he doesn't know what he is doing. Right now I ride his personal horses while my horse is in training and I have never once had a refusal, not one, and he trained them all.

With that said, I would like to thank the few who posted positive comments on my thread. As you can see I am new to this forum and didn't expect the less than friendly welcome that I recieved. Guess you can say I was raised a little differently. Constructive critisism would have been a lot nicer than some of the other posts I read. If you see something you don't like or something that YOU think is going to ruin my horse, why not add a polite comment on what your training methods are and how YOU use them?

Also in case you missed it there are TWO videos in my OP, and yes one of them is gymnastics, please read my entire OP.

Any other comments on my prospect would be great. We plan to do local NTHJC and A shows. :)
 
#14 ·
OP, you commented while I was commenting. First of all, I simply intended to show you that there are other, potentially better for your situation ways of training. Potentially being the key word in that sentence. I did it in a way that was not rude, so if you can find an instance of me being rude I'd like to see it please. What I wrote I stated in a way that was meant to be the least abrasive, but I did not come across as rude.

Also, I have commented on the training methods. You can read my views in the post above. I have given you straight, informative information, I do not see how this is a "less than friendly" welcome. This is a forum for sharing knowledge. And knowledge I have shared.
 
#19 ·
I find this horse lovely. :) You two loook good I watched both videos and I don't see what another member saw. I do think how ever the information she gave would be helpful.
If you like your trainer that your choice dont worry what others say :)

Welcome to the forums by the way.
 
#20 ·
CinnamonBoots, why are you getting so defensive? Different trainers have different methods and you chose one that has a different style of training than some others. You asked for a critique and you got responses on what has worked in other people's situations. I have retrained 6 OTTB (3 for Hunters, 3 for Eventing) and I personally would never make a horse stop after a fence. This associates them stopping when they see a rail and those rails will be present during shows. In Jumpers you will have some very tight turns right after a jump so what I always do is circle after a jump before stopping. That way after a jump, my horses are always waiting for my cue on which way to turn. Circling also helps them slow down.

I am only saying this because I feel as if the method of running into a fence not only teaches them to associate an arena fence with stopping, but it also can be dangerous. There are some horses who will think "I just jumped, now I'm being pointed towards this rail- it's kind of high, but it's what she seems to want so I guess I'll try and jump it"!

I am not trying to knock you or your trainer, I'm telling you what's worked for me and what will make the most sense to your horse.
 
#23 ·
I didn't see it till half way through the arguments on training methods. I'm actually very familiar with what they're doing in the first vid... I've seen tons of trainers use the arena fence to teach a horse who takes off afterwards or dives a direction not to.

Anyways... on to the horse. =) I like him. He looks like he's enjoying his job, and is showing some good form. He's pretty square in the knees so he may be able to go hunters. He looks like he's getting a good start.
Love the crutches shot.

You obviously picked this trainer for a reason, and you're seeing improvements. The horse doesn't seem unhappy either. Best of luck to you both.
 
#24 ·
I absolutely love this horse, especially as a jumper prospect. He clearly enjoys jumping and he's nice and tidy with his front end. Good luck to the both of you!
 
#26 ·
No one is using the fence as a stopping/training method. We never do that and that is not me riding :). I am the one videoing and as you can see on crutches :(. Actually I'm noy quite sure why he stopped so close to the fence, I have several videos from that day and that is the only video of him stopping at the fence, so in no way are we "teaching" him that. I'm sure some of you have videos of being bucked off, lol, but that doesn't necessecarily mean you "made" him do that, so just to clarify no one did that purposefully. He is a young horse things happen. I have been through my fair share of horrible horrible trainers, and it took me a long time to find this one! Word of mouth, in my opinion, is the best way to find someone, and of course that little tool called google :). Love love love loveeeee my trainer! And I love the fact that I can be proud to mention his name in a group full of horse people and there is not one negative thing they have to mention :). Unlike my old trainer, now that's another story :(, she almost ruined my horse, idiot. Anyways, its great to hear all of the positive feedback on my man I bought him without the help of a trainer and am very proud of him and I. Now only if I could get this darn cast off and ride him! :(
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#27 ·
It shouldn't be "him stopping" it should be the rider asking. Whoever is in control needs to ask him to hault. It doesn't look like the rider is asking him to stop at the fence, it looks like they are not driving after the jump. Therefore the horse is running in a straight line and then, well, when he hits the fence obviously he has to turn!
 
#28 ·
I think he is a GREAT prospect! For an OTTB he sure is calm over fences! My 13y.o. OTTB isn't even as calm as that haha!
Seems very talented, and it's hard to tell since there aren't any full courses, but I think he would do well in both hunters and jumpers :) (But jumpers in particular, as he seems like he will be pretty scopey!)
 
#29 ·
Well, i think you could
1. get some better video shots and
2. get some more action videos

and then you can upload them for critique. Or else, it's a little bit unfair for anyone to critiquing that. Unfair for your trainer and your choice, since you believe he is doing well and unfair for the others, since it seems that there is not a holistic picture of the training. That (1&2) would help you avoid a lot of explanations, right? :)
And one more thing. Why do you bother for critique? I mean, you have your horse, you have your trainer chosen after research, you are there everyday, checking him working on your horse, you are riding his work (horses) and you see the progress. Whatever we see is just few seconds from all this.
Suppose that everyone was telling you that your horse doesn't worth a penny (which is not the case, i find him very good horse, strong and willing), would you accept it? No. Would you had seconds thoughts about him at night? No-again. So, don't take it personally, it's just people's opinions around here, sometimes focusing more on the techniques and arguing between them, than actually being impolite to you.

I believe that everyone here wants the best for your horse. After all, the critique you got for him, was really positive, right? :)
 
#30 ·
Um, wow. There sure is a lot of discussion on the merits or downfalls of halting a horse after a fence for a horse critique....

Anyways, I see a jumper not a hunter. He might be ok on a lower level local type show circuit if he can get his changes and stay on a rhythm but he doesn't have a great trot or long/low type of movement you want in a hunter. Fortunately his canter is ok... but an ok canter will only get you so far in the hunter ring! Seems pretty quiet through the grid. It's hard to tell how scopey he is since he's not trying too hard over the fences at this height but for the level of training he's at I wouldn't want him over jumping anything.
 
#31 ·
Um, wow. There sure is a lot of discussion on the merits or downfalls of halting a horse after a fence for a horse critique....

Anyways, I see a jumper not a hunter. He might be ok on a lower level local type show circuit if he can get his changes and stay on a rhythm but he doesn't have a great trot or long/low type of movement you want in a hunter. Fortunately his canter is ok... but an ok canter will only get you so far in the hunter ring! Seems pretty quiet through the grid. It's hard to tell how scopey he is since he's not trying too hard over the fences at this height but for the level of training he's at I wouldn't want him over jumping anything.
Oh wow really??? I have always been told he was a really NICE canter. He has too much knee action for hunters, but his canter is really nice. What do you consider "local level" our goal is NTHJC and A rated shows. My barn doesn't do the wear whatever you want (t-shirt, breeches, and half chap) shows. :) That is what I would consider lower level. What is your take?

Here is a better video of his gaits.
This is not me in the video.

 
#32 ·
Personally, I don't think his canter is all that great, either. I don't mean that in a rude way, he just isn't a great mover. :)
As far as what level you are showing, all that matters is that you are safe and have fun. He is a very pretty horse, and seems like he has a great mind. Good luck with him!
 
#33 ·
He doesn't look like he's especially thrilled about using his inside hind at the canter, which probably contributed to why he wanted to pick up the right lead. But I don't see any REAL issues with his gaits, as I like his trot and his canter seems like it could improve with proper uphill muscling under saddle.
 
#39 ·
I agree with the canter thing. Watching the video of him moving, he really isn't moving his hind under him that much. I didn't watch the whole video, but from what I saw, he barely seemed to be stepping under himself at all. I think some more muscle and learning how to really use himself will help. It'll come with time, considering he's only a greenie.

I think he has a lovely jump and will make a wonderful horse. Best of luck!
 
#34 ·
Cantering a green horse over any form of fence teaches him to rush. We are trying to avoid rushing which is why we trot. Any person who has ever trained a green horse in H/J will tell you that.
This is an unnecessary generalization. I also have an OTTB. He started jumping at age 5 and has not rushed a single fence whether is be a single obstacle or a grid. All horses are not the same. I don't think anyone was being mean to you. They were simply pointing out that the particular training method of stopping at the fence can backfire on you, and once it does, it will be hard to fix. If it's working for you, that's great. I personally use the circle method that another poster suggested. It creates a nice jumping effort while not interrupting the tempo. Your horse does not look like a rusher to me, but then it's only a short video. Regardless, his is a nice looking horse. I'm sure he'll make a nice jumper.
 
#35 ·
Watching his gaits, I'll have to agree he's not a Hunter... He's got a bit of suspension and isn't a flat mover. However these traits make him better for SJ or even an eventer. If you don't want him, I'll happily take him off your hands, no charge. j/k
 
#36 ·
Watching his gaits, I'll have to agree he's not a Hunter... He's got a bit of suspension and isn't a flat mover. However these traits make him better for SJ or even an eventer. If you don't want him, I'll happily take him off your hands, no charge. j/k
What is SJ?

And I'll gladly give him to you for 10k... Thats all he's worth to me right now! Ha.... ;)

I have been told he would make a good eventer. One thing Im not too sure about is... Is it alright to put him in H/J training and then eventing later on? My trainer is not an eventer but I think it is a good idea to let my horse learn how to jump first. I don't want to spend a fortune in training, which Im already doing :/. But if I feel he could benefit later on in eventing more so than "Just jumping" than I will move him, later. No plans to move him for another year or so or even ever at the moment, of course unless you want to go ahead and wire me that money ;).
 
#38 ·
Originally Posted by CinnamonBoots
Thank you to those who posted positive comments.

Sorry, but don't ask for a critique if you only want to hear what you want to hear. Honest critiques don't behave that way.

I asked for critiques on my prospect, I didn't ask for help with training. And even if I did need advice I certainly wouldn't take it from some of the people who behaved ill mannered towards my post. CONSTRUCTIVE critism might have been more appropriate, polite people do not "behave that way".

I am very confident in my trainer and his methods, as I have seen him start and finish green horses in H/J expecially OTTB. He is well known in my area and I would not have chosen him to work with my horse if I did not trust in his methods, trust me I did my research.

All trainers, good AND bad have followings, unfortunately.

As Im sure does your trainer, or you, if indeed you are one.

LIke I said this little guy is green so not everything he does is going to be "perfect" he is still in training.

As for the outdoor arena fence which I am assuming is what you are referring to when you say "stopping" at the fence. When you trot a crossrail you are always suppose to stop straight after it, at least thats what I was always taught when training a green horse.

No horses I train get run into fences to teach them to jump crossrails....ever. I want a horse to approach calmly, jump calmly, and exit calmly. Running them into a rail disrupts all the calm you are trying to achieve, IME.

Someone is not reading my posts very well. It was not a "TRAINING METHOD" to run him into a fence. It just happened. I'm sure you have had a mishap before in your training, that you did not mean to happen. Perhaps your horse refused a fence? Left out a stride and was long causing a fault? It happens.

Also in case you missed it there are TWO videos in my OP, and yes one of them is gymnastics, please read my entire OP.

Any other comments on my prospect would be great. We plan to do local NTHJC and A shows. :)
 
#40 ·
Originally Posted by CinnamonBoots


As Im sure does your trainer, or you, if indeed you are one.


Any other comments on my prospect would be great. We plan to do local NTHJC and A shows. :)
Hmmmm....for someone so new to the forum, you might want to get to know some of us, and our credentials, before you decide to do any "attacks". It is only prudent.
 
#42 ·
Krystal-Your horse looks amazing I love him :) He has a great movement I can see where you say his Canter is nice its really nice he looks like a great ride once hes ready i wanna come out and ride him ;)
 
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