Jumping Position - The Horse Forum
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post #1 of 15 Old 05-20-2018, 08:44 PM Thread Starter
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Jumping Position

Really want some second opinions on my jumping eq. I kinda have to figure everything out on my own because my trainer doesn't teach jumping. I know the picture is dark and I'm sorry.
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post #2 of 15 Old 05-20-2018, 10:48 PM
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I know there are others here with far better jumping position knowledge than I have, but I can see a couple of things.

Your body is going too far forward, especially for the size of these jumps. Your base isn't as stable as it would be if you stayed back over your balance point. If your horse refuses at the last minute, when you've already pitched forward, you're going to keep going right over his neck. It's also hard to tell from these photos, but I'm fairly sure your stirrups are too long, which is probably contributing to the pitching forward that's happening.

Following a horse's motion over a jump isn't so much about "leaning forward" as it is about closing your body's angles. Your hip angle does close, which results in your torso leaning slightly forward from the hip. But your knee angle should also be able to close, which allows your hips to come out behind you and compensate for your torso coming down and forward. Your ankle's angle closes to compensate for the knee closing, which is why there's a deeper drop into heel. The whole thing is more of a full-body crouch than an upper-body lean. Your joints need to fold like an acordian.

If your stirrups are too long, then your knee and ankle can't take enough of the bend to compensate for your torso to keep you balanced. So you pitch forward. In your photos, your heels are coming up and your toes are down, which shows that all the bend is happening in your hip. Again, the stirrups are too long here for you to bend correctly.

Try standing flat on the ground. Bend at the hip to lean your torso forward, and bend your knees and squat, keeping your feet flat on the ground. You'll find you really haven't moved that far ahead, and that your hips are out behind you to compensate for the shift in weight. So you're still staying balanced over your feet. It should be the same in the saddle. If you tried to just lean your torso forward while standing on the ground, without compensating with a good bend in your knees and ankles, and the weight of your hips out behind you, you'd fall on your face.

You need to work on getting all your angles to work in harmony. You can start this on the flat by shortening your stirrups and practicing your two-point. You need to let weight drop into your heels, let your knees and hips bend, and find that place where you're independently balanced like that without gripping or pinching or grabbing mane or the reins. When you can ride well in a balanced two-point, you can start to fix your form over fences.

Last edited by SteadyOn; 05-20-2018 at 10:54 PM. Reason: (Edited to clarify a couple things and add that last paragraph.)
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post #3 of 15 Old 05-20-2018, 11:08 PM
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Get a trainer who teaches you what you want to know, jumping is not what you learn on your own.

You have two trainers, you jump at shows, but no one is coaching you?
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“Never attribute to malice that which can be attributed to stupidity”
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post #4 of 15 Old 05-20-2018, 11:32 PM
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Steady On covered a lot.

You are jumping ahead of the motion, a common mistake. Your seat is too far ahead in relation to the saddle. As Steady On said, the hips have to shift backwards to counter balance. It will feel weird at first when you are used to jumping ahead, which is one reason it is important to have an educated eye help you out real-time. Do you notice how you have T-rex arms? While your release is adequate, you're collapsing forward onto his neck. You can see that if you move your body back, you will free up your shoulders and elbows to give access to a more dynamic release.

You are holding yourself in with your knees, also a common mistake. In both photos, your weight isn't truly down in the heels, the second one very obviously. Rotate the whole leg out, turn the knees out, so the inner-back of the calf is on and the knee is off. This is going to create your base of balance and strength. It is an exaggerated position, but shows you your balance point. With your leg like this, it is much harder to throw you body around without the knee to anchor yourself.

Your back and shoulders are nice and flat and you are looking up.
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post #5 of 15 Old 05-20-2018, 11:32 PM
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Common Sense Horsemanship by VS Littauer.

"It was over dinner one evening with Vladimir S. Littauer, my coach of 4 years, William Steinkraus, the captain of the United States Equestrian Show Jumping Team, and my Dad, that Steinkraus informed us that there was a spot open at Gladstone, New Jersey with the 3-day team. Gladstone was the USET training headquarters and I would be under the tutelage of Stephan Von Vischy, the coach. This made my Dad comfortable with my decision not to go to college and instead , pursue my passion. Knowing that my education would continue at the highest level, my Dad gave me his blessings." - Bernie Traurig

DVDs Available For Sale | Equestrian Coach

I own one of the DVDs. And I ride western...

Given the increased risks that go with jumping, I won't try it unless I can find a live instructor. But I'm 60 & my home made arena is a lot like concrete. That, and my horse is a bit wonky and might not stand up to the stress of jumping. If live instruction isn't an option where you are, learning from experts via book or DVD is better than nothing. Littauer's book helped me when I needed it just for riding on the flat.

Riders ask "How?" Horsemen ask "Why?"
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post #6 of 15 Old 05-20-2018, 11:37 PM
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You're pictures are hard to see...
But I'll mention a few things...
Your entire body is pretty much shoved in front of the horse..no, just no.
Your horse should be rising to you, not you lifting your horse or pitching your body so far forward.
You need 2" - 3" of butt out of the saddle on a fence of this size...you have more like 12" of space...that is over-jumping and dangerous for you!

You are actually hindering the horse in bascule {rounding} over the fence they need doing.
You've put all your weight on that horses front end working to clear that fence..

You're so rigid it hurts to look at you.
Soften your back and your neck...you look very over arched, like someone stuck a stick down your shirt and breeches...relax so you can follow the horse with your body.
You're on your toes, throwing your balance away in both pictures.
So much light between body and horse tells me you need to do a lot of riding basics of trot work and 2-point to learn where your balance point is.
You have no leg on that horse, from below your knee to your crotch daylight is seen...that is not good positioning.
From what I can see in shadowy pictures you also have not released that horses head to allow him to round over that fence...

Sadly, you keep mentioning your trainer doesn't do jumping,...then find a trainer who does.
The habits you are learning are going to get you hurt one of these days if you not work to correct your poor position and base of support over a fence.
This horse is a tryer, but the horse is going to clip a fence one of these days and you are going to take a very nasty dump...

Is this Justice you're riding?
If it is I don't get he doesn't do airy fences cause what you're doing is about as airy as you can get and have a horse go over...
If you want to learn and do it right, then go back to x-rails and work on your body position and crest/hand release and timing.
Do trot poles to a take-off pole and landing pole so you learn where to ask for "go" from...

You're not ready to do verticals of this height nor openness...it takes time to learn that timing, jump position and how far you need to elevate and that is just something you do not know, have no one teaching you and a huge hole in your command of riding necessities.
Please, please get a trainer who can teach you riding to a fence base, execution of a jump and not just throwing the horse and yourself over it...
For both your and the horses safety...you need a trainer and good eyes watching you ride.
Some things you can not learn from watching a video...you may "understand" mentally, but to real-life do it and execute it correctly takes someone standing there telling you, harping at you lesson after lesson till you really see it, feel it and just do-it like breathing without trying so hard...
Right now, you're trying to hard and it shows.

You are not far from having good positioning but with no one to truly guide you your bad habits and learning is truly hurting you.
You really need a trainer...not excuses made.

sorry...
...
jmo...

The worst day is instantly better when shared with my horse.....
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post #7 of 15 Old 05-20-2018, 11:38 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Horse View Post
Get a trainer who teaches you what you want to know, jumping is not what you learn on your own.

You have two trainers, you jump at shows, but no one is coaching you?
Talking about Emily I have no one to help me. The trainer where Justice is is amazing and teaching me well but Justice and Emily are different horses with different stride lengths, speeds, timing, approaches, and personalities. Everything pretty much feels different and its hard for me to incorperate the tips and things we use for Justice on Emily.
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post #8 of 15 Old 05-20-2018, 11:42 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by horselovinguy View Post
You're pictures are hard to see...
But I'll mention a few things...
Your entire body is pretty much shoved in front of the horse..no, just no.
Your horse should be rising to you, not you lifting your horse or pitching your body so far forward.
You need 2" - 3" of butt out of the saddle on a fence of this size...you have more like 12" of space...that is over-jumping and dangerous for you!

You are actually hindering the horse in bascule {rounding} over the fence they need doing.
You've put all your weight on that horses front end working to clear that fence..

You're so rigid it hurts to look at you.
Soften your back and your neck...you look very over arched, like someone stuck a stick down your shirt and breeches...relax so you can follow the horse with your body.
You're on your toes, throwing your balance away in both pictures.
So much light between body and horse tells me you need to do a lot of riding basics of trot work and 2-point to learn where your balance point is.
You have no leg on that horse, from below your knee to your crotch daylight is seen...that is not good positioning.
From what I can see in shadowy pictures you also have not released that horses head to allow him to round over that fence...

Sadly, you keep mentioning your trainer doesn't do jumping,...then find a trainer who does.
The habits you are learning are going to get you hurt one of these days if you not work to correct your poor position and base of support over a fence.
This horse is a tryer, but the horse is going to clip a fence one of these days and you are going to take a very nasty dump...


Is this Justice you're riding?
If it is I don't get he doesn't do airy fences cause what you're doing is about as airy as you can get and have a horse go over...
If you want to learn and do it right, then go back to x-rails and work on your body position and crest/hand release and timing.
Do trot poles to a take-off pole and landing pole so you learn where to ask for "go" from...

You're not ready to do verticals of this height nor openness...it takes time to learn that timing, jump position and how far you need to elevate and that is just something you do not know, have no one teaching you and a huge hole in your command of riding necessities.
Please, please get a trainer who can teach you riding to a fence base, execution of a jump and not just throwing the horse and yourself over it...
For both your and the horses safety...you need a trainer and good eyes watching you ride.
Some things you can not learn from watching a video...you may "understand" mentally, but to real-life do it and execute it correctly takes someone standing there telling you, harping at you lesson after lesson till you rally see it, feel it and just do-it like breathing without trying so hard...
Right now, you're trying to hard and it shows.

You are not far from having good positioning but with no one to truly guide you your bad habits and learning is truly hurting you.
You really need a trainer...not excuses made.

sorry...
...
jmo...
Thanks for the advice! I'm going back on Tuesday and I will work on lower things while focusing on my 2 point. There have been complications with riding this horse if you looked at my other thread, but whoever I end up on I will try. This is Emily not Justice :)
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post #9 of 15 Old 05-20-2018, 11:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LydiaAndJustice View Post
Talking about Emily I have no one to help me. The trainer where Justice is is amazing and teaching me well but Justice and Emily are different horses with different stride lengths, speeds, timing, approaches, and personalities. Everything pretty much feels different and its hard for me to incorperate the tips and things we use for Justice on Emily.

See, this is what tells those of us who do/did jump that you are not ready to be on your own.
All those things you just mentioned, " different horses with different stride lengths, speeds, timing, approaches, and personalities" are all the things a rider compensates and accommodates in their body position and riding.


"Everything pretty much feels different and its hard for me to incorperate the tips and things we use for Justice on Emily"....this just solidifies to me you are in over your head doing jumping on your own.


If what you were taught is well understood and learned then applying it to a horse who you have ridden countless times before and know well should not be a problem.
These are not the same horse, but if you are trained to ride over fences applying principle to execution is not so difficult...it is difficult though when your understanding of the concept is weak.
I rode as a teenager a different horse every 2 lessons, but I applied what I learned on any horse to every horse ridden...
....
jmo...

The worst day is instantly better when shared with my horse.....
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post #10 of 15 Old 05-21-2018, 12:13 PM
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Here are some examples to have a look at. Beezie Madden, Denny Emerson, Bill Steinkraus. Have a look at how much of their body mass is behind the mid-point of their lower leg. No matter how HUGE the jump, their weight is centered over their lower leg and over the mass of the horse's body. These positions are beautiful and functional and stable as all get out. If you're going to emulate anyone, might as well be emulating the very best.
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